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Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:35 am
by karatestu
Geoff.R.G wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:51 am
The premise that a suspension is needed to eliminate feedback is, of course, flawed. At normal, domestic, listening levels it is extremely difficult to induce feedback in a record playing system, even when done deliberately. A turntable on a cabinet sitting on a suspended wooden floor may benefit from some springs to isolate the assembly from the floor but a solid shelf attached to a brick wall is a better solution.
My first record player was a BSR auto changer, I was probably about 10 at the time. Essentially it was very similar to a Lenco with the chassis sitting on springs to provide some isolation from the speaker in the same cabinet. The next was a Pioneer PL12D, a similar idea but with a belt drive. Only later did I progress to a suspended turntable, a Thorens TD160, which I still have. The point being that in the intervening 50+ years I have never encountered a problem with feedback. Sure I have heard plenty of it in audio systems involving microphones but never in a turntable, irrespective of the construction.
I suspect that replacing the springs in a Linn LP12 with solid spacers and sitting the plinth on isolating feet would solve the “going out of tune” problem permanently. As I see it, the suspension is a solution to a problem that, for 99.99% of users, doesn’t exist.
The Thorens doesn’t need regular adjustments, in that respect it is fit and forget.
Hey Geoff. I've no idea how much vibration is a problem. I have some Anologue Innovations in sole spring replacement bobbins that should do what you suggest above regarding removing the springs.
The LP12 disciples all bang on about how even motor vibrations can make their way to the stylus hence one of the reasons the motor is on the top plate isolated from the subchasis via the springs.
Personally I find there is so much opposing information about concerning this that one does not know what to believe. As ever the only way for me to know is to do the comparisons myself. Not sure I can be arsed though. I seem to remember DQ removed the suspension from his Pink Triangle and liked it.
Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:38 am
by karatestu
Funny how this thread about the purchase of some NVA gear has turned into a discussion about turntables and suspensions
Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:49 am
by Geoff.R.G
karatestu wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:35 am
Geoff.R.G wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:51 am
The premise that a suspension is needed to eliminate feedback is, of course, flawed. At normal, domestic, listening levels it is extremely difficult to induce feedback in a record playing system, even when done deliberately. A turntable on a cabinet sitting on a suspended wooden floor may benefit from some springs to isolate the assembly from the floor but a solid shelf attached to a brick wall is a better solution.
My first record player was a BSR auto changer, I was probably about 10 at the time. Essentially it was very similar to a Lenco with the chassis sitting on springs to provide some isolation from the speaker in the same cabinet. The next was a Pioneer PL12D, a similar idea but with a belt drive. Only later did I progress to a suspended turntable, a Thorens TD160, which I still have. The point being that in the intervening 50+ years I have never encountered a problem with feedback. Sure I have heard plenty of it in audio systems involving microphones but never in a turntable, irrespective of the construction.
I suspect that replacing the springs in a Linn LP12 with solid spacers and sitting the plinth on isolating feet would solve the “going out of tune” problem permanently. As I see it, the suspension is a solution to a problem that, for 99.99% of users, doesn’t exist.
The Thorens doesn’t need regular adjustments, in that respect it is fit and forget.
Hey Geoff. I've no idea how much vibration is a problem. I have some Anologue Innovations in sole spring replacement bobbins that should do what you suggest above regarding removing the springs.
The LP12 disciples all bang on about how even motor vibrations can make their way to the stylus hence one of the reasons the motor is on the top plate isolated from the subchasis via the springs.
Personally I find there is so much opposing information about concerning this that one does not know what to believe. As ever the only way for me to know is to do the comparisons myself. Not sure I can be arsed though. I seem to remember DQ removed the suspension from his Pink Triangle and liked it.
The LP12 disciples are partly right. The motor is, like it or not, connected to the platter and thus to the stylus. That the motor is connected via belt, idler or directly doesn't matter, it is connected. There is also, unfortunately, no such thing as a perfect bearing so there will be noise from that source too. However, as long as the motor vibrations and the noise from the main bearing and the noise from the stylus suspension are at an amplitude below the threshold of hearing they really don't matter.
It is entirely possible to drive one's self, and everybody else, mad with trying to eliminate extraneous noise. The fact is that you can't! Your body makes extraneous noises so does your house, your central heating and the air around you. The art is to submerge your self in the music and shut out, mentally, the extraneous noises. It is perfectly possible to listen to music on a portable radio and be enthralled by it, equally one can listen on the most expensive Hi-Fi and be appalled. It is the listener that matters not the equipment.
Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:49 pm
by Vinyl-ant
Iirc the ariston rd40 and the systemdek biscuit tin both had a tie wire to counteract the twisting of the chassis under power.
If you look at other similar competitors such as those two, the gyro and the oracle delphi the inherent problems with suspending the decks are there in all of them and there are various solutions.
The oracle and the ariston have adjustable bob weights to balance the subchassisweight distribution, the gyro lowers the centre of gravity with platter weights, the ariston and systemdek make the subchassis the main part of the deck and strip it down to the bare bones.
These days there arent a great deal of ss decks out there new, at least not that i can think of
Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 2:59 pm
by Geoff.R.G
Vinyl-ant wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:49 pm
Iirc the Ariston rd40 and the Systemdek biscuit tin both had a tie wire to counteract the twisting of the chassis under power.
If you look at other similar competitors such as those two, the Gyro and the oracle Delphi the inherent problems with suspending the decks are there in all of them and there are various solutions.
The oracle and the Ariston have adjustable bob weights to balance the sub-chassis weight distribution, the Gyro lowers the centre of gravity with platter weights, the Ariston and Systemdek make the sub-chassis the main part of the deck and strip it down to the bare bones.
These days there aren't a great deal of ss decks out there new, at least not that i can think of
The law of unintended consequences strikes again! Start with a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and then correct the problems you created with the solution. Seems to be a money spinner for Linn.
Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:10 pm
by CN211276
According to the Linn mythology Ivor discovered that a TT not in the same room as the speakers sounded better than one in the same room because of acoustic feedback. Hence his SS design.
A&R and Thoerns already had SS TTS before he nicked the one from Ariston.
Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 4:51 pm
by Lindsayt
Geoff.R.G wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:51 am
...I suspect that replacing the springs in a Linn LP12 with solid spacers and sitting the plinth on isolating feet would solve the “going out of tune” problem permanently. As I see it, the suspension is a solution to a problem that, for 99.99% of users, doesn’t exist.
The Thorens doesn’t need regular adjustments, in that respect it is fit and forget.
When I look at photos of other people's system, about 80% of them with vinyl sources have the turntable on a floor mounted stand or cabinet that's close to 1 or both speakers.
There seems to be a reluctance to have turntables on solid wall mounted shelves or on the opposite side of the room to the speakers.
Getting a turntable properly supported and positioned makes a couple of notches difference in sound quality in my experience.
Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:07 pm
by Vinyl-ant
Geoff.R.G wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:51 am
I suspect that replacing the springs in a Linn LP12 with solid spacers and sitting the plinth on isolating feet would solve the “going out of tune” problem permanently. As I see it, the suspension is a solution to a problem that, for 99.99% of users, doesn’t exist.
They did. It was called the axis
Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:47 pm
by Lindsayt
Vinyl-ant wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:07 pm
They did. It was called the axis
Axis? Like Germany, Italy and Japan in 1942?
Re: Oh My God, What Have I done!?
Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:14 pm
by Geoff.R.G
Vinyl-ant wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 6:07 pm
Geoff.R.G wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:51 am
I suspect that replacing the springs in a Linn LP12 with solid spacers and sitting the plinth on isolating feet would solve the “going out of tune” problem permanently. As I see it, the suspension is a solution to a problem that, for 99.99% of users, doesn’t exist.
They did. It was called the axis
Reviews suggest that it is “almost as good” as the LP12. Given that the original reviews, in 1972, of the LP12 were highly critical one has to consider what “almost as good” actually means.
Over the years I have become less inclined to believe what I am told, whether by reviewers, government or any other “authority”. So often what we are told is governed by an agenda rather than objective truth. I no longer believe that reviewers of Hi-Fi in the UK are independent of the industry, undoubtedly some are but these days disagreeing with the commonly held view is career limiting. As a result I have no objective, independent, source of information on the performance, or otherwise, of the LP12. What I do have is sufficient data to suggest that, from an engineering perspective, the LP12 is deeply flawed. The design is based on a false premise, that feedback is a problem, and the inherent limitations there of make it unreliable and unstable (in that it needs constant adjustment to keep it operating “correctly”).