HiFi Subjectivist ¦ Audio Forum ¦ NVA User Group

I've posted this before but it bears repeating.

Went to Billy Vee's to listen to an LP12 and was totally underwhelmed. Found a Rock at Doug Brady's and fell in love.

No longer have a record deck. The software was expensive and not freely available. I'd also learned all the clicks and bangs on the 400 or so LPs I owned.

Welcome to NVA and the forum, RealAleman

The antipathy (not just here) towards the LP12 comes, historically, from their hyperbolic marketing and stranglehold on dealers and magazines through the 1980s (to mid 1990s?). While folks were abandoning Garrards and Lencos for LP12s, what we know now is that they should have been putting the idler decks into better plinths, instead. That would have been an interesting comparison (but not one that any dealer would have facilitated). More recently, there is a fresh wave of cynicism about Linn's pricing. No-one is forced to buy one, though.

The LP12 that I owned did some things pretty well, but other things not very well. There are many, many other famous pieces of hi-fi kit that I could say the same for. If what it does floats your boat, and you're OK with the pricing...then, why not? I've not heard a modern one - Mark's Lingo, Ekos, Troika set up is probably the most recent iteration that I have listened to. Mark also has Naim monos in his loft that he hasn't used since he bought an NVA Starter Bundle.

The vintage 'battleship' direct drives are well worth hearing (Lindsayt and Vinyl-Ant have more experience with them than me) but owning and looking after a vintage 'super deck' is not necessarily for everyone. I love my 401 (idler), but I now also love my digital set up since I started upsampling to DSD, using HQ Player.

karatestu wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:44 am LP12 bashing is a bit of a sport round here. Sometimes I join in and then remember I've bloody got one somewhere in the depths of a cupboard.

I do intend to get it going eventually and compare to the PL-71.

What is the penalty round here if I end up preferring the fruitbox? 20 lashings, a stoning, crucifixion?

TheRealAleman wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:13 am

Lindsayt wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:57 am I bet House of Linn didn't have one of these in full working condition on demo against their LP12 bits and pieces:

Truly a thing of beauty, although for me, after a couple of bad experiences, I just can't bring myself to "trust" direct drive. Even though things have improved greatly since the 70's

Now a Thorens 122 Mk II, or a Garrard 301/401 in those wonderful new wooden chassis yes I could see myself lusting after one of those ... She on the other hand would kill me! (being a trained chemist with the key to the poisons cabinet, who would know?? :D )

I personally see it as vintage Pioneer bashing when dealers demo multi-thousand pound bouncy belt drive bits and not one of the best engineered and sounding vinyl sources ever made.

So they deem that the best ever Pioneer is not worth having in their demo room?
If they only stocked sub £5000 vinyl sources it would be somewhat understandable. If they were new to the hi-fi game it would be understandable. But the owners of House of Linn have been in the business for decades.
So they must be aware that Pioneer Exclsuive P3's exist. And that they were made to levels of engineering that piss all over anything ever done by Linn. And that they are highly revered by owners. And received rave reviews in the day from non UK hi-fi press.

So what have they got against these classic Pioneer turntables? Why do they hate them so much that they won't have them in their dealership?

As a bit of personal speculation: they'd never sell £4k+ worth of LP12 bits if they did. Pioneer P3's are the nemesis of Linn dealers.

As are fully working, properly plinthed, armed and cartridges, Garrard 301's, 401, Thorens 124's, classic Lencos etc etc.

I think it's a joke that anyone pointing out highly valid alternatives to the LP12 is seen as a Linn basher. When it's the Linn dealers that have sent all these great classic vinyl sources to Coventry. They pretend that they don't exist, not in front of a customer anyway.

The net result of Linn dealers War Against Alternative Turntables (WAAT) is that you have a number of vinyl listeners that are not getting as much enjoyment as they could out of their records for the amount they've spent on the tools to listen to them.

For your wife TheRealAleman, have you told her how much you've spent on the fruitbox? And how much it would cost you to put together a fully fettled Lenco? And how much each of them are likely to depreciate?
If she's anything like my wife, she'd soon change her mind when presented with the financial realities of the situation.

I used to own an LP12 and enjoyed it, changed to a PTtoo and thought it did everything Linn boasted about, but better. I remember Steve the Shadow on here saying he enjoyed his, but made him listen to albums that actually sounded good on the Linn, rather than his complete collection, this struck a nerve with me when I think back to my time with the LP12. Anyway, finished my days of vinyl with one of Ant's Lenco, a great tt.

Linn maintained their stranglehold over UK dealers by illegal means. They were reported and Ivor had to pay off the Thatcher government to keep Trading Standards off his back. The losers were the industry and consumers.

RealAleman - your observations about digital are quite common, but have you experienced up-sampling? You might be surprised.

One reason Linn dealers can't demo these old DD and Idlers is that they are not new. It would be interesting if they stocked a new Technics 1200G @ approx £3300, then demo'ed it against all the different versions of the LP12.

antonio66 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:45 pm all the different versions of the LP12.

Exactly. The LP12 is a pirated flawed design from half a century ago. You can't make a silk purse out of a sous ear but you can laugh all the way to the bank if you fool some of the people all of the time.

If the real ale man likes it, then who is anyone to say otherwise
I found with my lp12 that once i binned off the linn arms and carts the deck was perfectly reasonable. Not the last word in anything, but i could happily listen to it. With a project arm in 2002, one of the very first one bought separately in the country (which took some doing to get out of henly designs who were not keen, they didnt even have a price for it) and an ortofon 540 mm it sounded quite nice, a mile better than it with an akito and k18.
The fact that it went off after a week and i had to reset it up every other week was what led to it being dismembered and built into a solid plinth with no suspension at all. A laminate of birch ply and acrylic. It was much better to me.
The deck to me was never inherently crap, but it was never as good as the marketing suggested. This however is 20 years ago, and there have been many incremental changes.
My gripe personally with the lp12 is linns very very aggressive marketing strategy in the 70s 80s and early 90s, and the massive upgrade path cost.
However the base deck is just that. A basik (sic) package that you are expected to sink money into over a period of time.
My jbe series 3 had no upgrade path, but with a few tweaks i brought it right up to date.
The big p3 has no upgrade path at all and if it breaks you are stuffed as the ics especially are decades obsolete and the japanese manufacturers had a penchant for custom programmed ics. So even if you can find a replacement for a failed ic, the program on it is not necessarily the one you need. There is no backup at all. Same as my jvc ql-y3f and y5f, i had to pore over the circuit to get the y3 to work again and have a good understanding of what i was looking at. Does joe public have that expertise? Not generally.
I fix these things for a living and i wont touch alot if them once symptoms are described. A recap is the first port of call but there are generally more issues lurking.
So its not so simple as to say lp12 crap p3 great, once the potential pitfalls are taken into account. I personally would not take the risk of a 3 grand 40 year old dd. But then i dont have 3 grand that i could take a risk with. That said, i have seen a very fabulous pioneer pl l1 that is nearly that price that i would bite the sellers hand off for, a trio lo7d or a yamaha px 1 2 or 3 would severely test my resistance to spending if i had the spend to spend..

The LP12 created a "service industry" in the setting up of the turntable.
In keeping with the Flat Earth Society mentality there seemed to be suggestions that very few had mastered the art of setting up an LP12 thus creating more mystique and marketing for the brand.
I must admit to once owning a Nait amp together with mark 1 Kans although the turntable was a Planar 3. I think the amp and speakers were £400 plus speaker stands.

Vinyl-ant wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:16 pm
The fact that it went off after a week

This might well explain why I was so unimpressed at the demo, as has been put forward by someone in the trade who used to post here some time back.

What would I want to do with a deck that goes out of tune every time a fly lands on it and farts.