HiFi Subjectivist ¦ Audio Forum ¦ NVA User Group

CN211276 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:01 pm

Lindsayt wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:31 pm Struan Mackenzie doesn't have the high moral ground.

From the information on their website his predecessor, who must be his father, was recommended by Ivor T. Says it all.

A Google search reveals a link to HiFi Corner on the Linn website.

Mr Slinger's reply, and not for the first time, nailed it, I might well have told him where to go Also CN's point about dealers being wary of direct sales is true, when you can buy products at 30%+ savings. Most simply cannot match your 30 day home trial, think I'll wander over to Facebook and have a look at the replies.

CN211276 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 11:42 pm

CN211276 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:01 pm

Lindsayt wrote: ↑Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:31 pm Struan Mackenzie doesn't have the high moral ground.

From the information on their website his predecessor, who must be his father, was recommended by Ivor T. Says it all.

A Google search reveals a link to HiFi Corner on the Linn website.

FFS. All is now clear. Pigs in the trough want their slurp.

I imagine that established dealers have audition rooms in which they can arrange things beneficially. A 30 day home trial negates any advantages they may derive from controlling the environment and source components. In many fields it is true to say that there are no “bad” products but hi-fi isn’t one of them some products really are poor performers, not that I could name any. However most smart phones can, given a decent, uncompressed, file, perform as a reasonable source. Thus anyone can trial good equipment even if they don’t yet own a source other than their phone.

It shouldn’t be any surprise that dealers with many thousands of pounds worth of stock and demonstration equipment see direct selling as a threat. Customers buying direct from the manufacturer can’t be “guided” towards any specific products or combinations. Of course if the same product can be tried at home and bought for significantly less money dealers are going to lose sales, no wonder they aren’t happy.

The argument that buying components in greater quantities results in lower parts costs is spurious, lower costs should mean, ultimately, a lower selling price or a greater manufacturer’s margin. Sony have clearly demonstrated that a higher margin is less profitable than a lower selling price, their XQD card could have been a game changer but they set the margin, and thus the price, too high and few manufacturers adopted it. Today the card is obsolescent and the competition is making CFExpress cards that are, for the same capacity, becoming cheaper than XQD as well as more widely used. Only a few legacy products still use the Sony card. If the selling price is right, and the manufacturer can still make an adequate profit, saving pennies in parts cost is irrelevant.

As dealers go, looking at the Hi Fi Corner website, they do appear to be one of the not too tragically bad ones.

All of their pre-amplifiers appear to be active designs. Which I think is an omission in not offering passive pre-amps.
And most of their floorstanding speakers are low efficiency, slimline, ported. But they do sell Klipsch high efficiency speakers and Quad and Martin Logan electrostatics - at the rather high to eye wateringly high UK retail prices.
And they do sell some direct drive turntables.

Although also on the downside is that in Edingburgh there's Puresound. A dealer that specialises in used hi-fi equipment.

I have a feeling that Hi Fi Corner would come out with the rhetoric that if everybody bought used, there'd be no new equipment entering into the pipeline to become tomorrow's used equipment...
They might also play the "used is risky" and "used sounds outdated" cards...

Change can be difficult, but it happens, whether anyone likes it or not. Dealers have moved towards a model that suits 'luxury' purchases, which has driven higher margins and ticket prices, but it has left them exposed to operators who are more able to utilise the internet to pass on savings to customers. It is not a surprise that we are making a few waves.

Dealers must look at their own business model and decide if it is still fit for purpose. Many dealers are selling online to customers without demonstration, especially cables and accessories. They could be passing on those savings to their customers, but they are burdened with very high fixed costs (and the industry effectively fixes prices), so they choose not to.

More and more customers are looking to buy direct, or secondhand. The traditional industry is sick, but it won't get better until it admits it, and makes changes. Aside from a very few boutiques, catering to the mega rich, traditional dealerships will die unless they become more competitive. That means giving a better deal to both customers and ethical manufacturers.

Lindsayt wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 10:27 am I have a feeling that Hi Fi Corner would come out with the rhetoric that if everybody bought used, there'd be no new equipment entering into the pipeline to become tomorrow's used equipment...
They might also play the "used is risky" and "used sounds outdated" cards...

If nobody bought new there would, eventually be no used kit either but that would take a long time. Anyway nobody is saying "don't buy new" what is being said is "buying new is poor economics".

Used is risky. Yes to some extent but buying new isn't entirely risk free either, good manufacturers support their products but in most cases only for a limited time. Buy an end of range product today and support could end in a year's time.

Used sounds outdated? If it sounds like music the age of the equipment is irrelevant. If new sounds "new" there is something wrong with it. In an ideal world I should be able to swap my 20 year old Quad 707 for a new Quad Artera Stereo and hear absolutely no difference because they would neither should be having any effect on the signal beyond supplying some gain.

In practice of course it isn't that simple, there will be new, and better, components used and they will make a difference but the 707 shouldn't sound "outdated". In fact my 40ish year old 405 doesn't sound dated compared to the 707 though both could undoubtedly be improved by replacing some integrated circuits and fitting better capacitors but that isn't the point. I doubt NVA's older amplifiers sound dated either.

On the change front we could look at watch selling businesses.
Both mechanical and quartz movements are mature technologies now.

When quartz came in, the Swiss mechanical brands moved upmarket. They are sold on the basis of them being precision mechanical engineering devices and on looks and brand cachet.
Mechanical watches are not sold on the basis of logic. Getting the best tool for the job. They are sold on the basis of them being status symbols. Jewellery. All emotion.

Maybe traditional hi-fi dealers and traditional hi-fi brands will cling on for a long long time with their marketing aimed at pulling on heart-strings?
Coming to think of it, for the last 15 to 20 years it could be said that traditional hi-fi brands and dealers have been marketed very much so on the basis of emotions. And not on logic.

Lindsayt wrote: ↑Thu Feb 24, 2022 6:00 pm On the change front we could look at watch selling businesses.
Both mechanical and quartz movements are mature technologies now.

When quartz came in, the Swiss mechanical brands moved upmarket. They are sold on the basis of them being precision mechanical engineering devices and on looks and brand cachet.
Mechanical watches are not sold on the basis of logic. Getting the best tool for the job. They are sold on the basis of them being status symbols. Jewellery. All emotion.

Maybe traditional hi-fi dealers and traditional hi-fi brands will cling on for a long long time with their marketing aimed at pulling on heart-strings?
Coming to think of it, for the last 15 to 20 years it could be said that traditional hi-fi brands and dealers have been marketed very much so on the basis of emotions. And not on logic.

Whilst I agree with the concept, as far as I can tell, the only products that are precision engineered are turntables, arms and cartridges. I am not sure an amplifier or a DAC can be precision engineered in quite the same way. The only components sold on looks are, I suggest, speakers some of which are beautifully made pieces of furniture.

Most other equipment comes under the heading of consumable, with the possible exception of some tuners. One need only look inside some cases and see the plethora of surface mount components to realise that repair is going to be a very expensive option, if it is even offered.

Emotion is another matter entirely. Some brands attract emotional attachment but others not so much, not that I could become attached to a transistor amplifier. Valves, possibly. I think the bland, bling, products will disappear and some others will become aspirational. The rest, if they want to survive, will have to adapt to a different distribution system either direct selling or something else, more like the Richer Sounds approach.

There is a limit as to how far watches can be compared with hi-fi.

Hi-fi is unlike any other consumer good - that I can think of.
Because there are differences in how enjoyable hi-fi is to use - unlike fridges and washing machines that are more commodity items.
Specs and measurements tell you very limited info in hi-fi - unlike desktop PC's and laptops.

Cherry picked audio equipment from the 1950's to 1990's sounds (performs) about as good as cherry picked gear from 2022 - in many instances. Sort of. With it all depending.
Unlike mobile phones, TV's, cars, watches, anti-tank weapons - where 2022 gear is better than the old school stuff.

DIY is a very valid route with hi-fi. I suppose similar to assembling a desktop PC yourself. But not quite similar.

Maybe hi-fi is most like furniture? A chippendale or a DIY'd cabinet would be very competitive with any brand new cabinets sold today. But then vintage hi-fi is usually pleasantly affordable compared to brand new, unlike antique furniture.