I suppose the actual answer to the topic is yes, they are legal, in that the laws were legally enacted in Parliament and that's an end to it. Interpretations of the laws are where the problems lie, and that seems to be smoothing out as time goes by. Yes, the incidents quoted in the post were real, but the question should be "are they still being repeated?" and the answer would seem to be "no."
If they were they still happening the press would be as full of them as it was when the first jobsworths and little Hitlers were riding roughshod over the laws, partly due to personal power-trips and partly due to piss-poor to non-existent training.
What is the difference between legislation and guidance?
To find out exactly what the rules are during the coronavirus pandemic, you need to look at both legislation and government guidance.
The legislation sets out legal obligations and restrictions that are enforceable by law. If you do not abide by the legislation you are breaking the law. Guidance and advice are likely to be based on legislation (in which case it will be legally binding) and it might offer the best or most appropriate way to adhere to the law.
The law is what you must do; the guidance might be a mixture of what you must do and what you should do.
Rather than speculate which is which, or just misunderstanding what you've been told, look here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/coronavirus
The fact that someone doesn't agree with a law does not make it less of a legal obligation, otherwise, my bank account might look a lot healthier.
There's a decent article here, from Liberty, the human rights group. https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/advice_information/coronavirus-know-your-rights/
Arguing the facts might not be as much fun as making shit up or relating something your mate's cousin's mum's milkman, swears is true, but it's more satisfying in the end because facts can be proved. Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got one, and a lot of them stink.
Coronavirus restrictions: are they legal
- slinger
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Re: Coronavirus restrictions: are they legal
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- CycleCoach (Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:33 pm) • CN211276 (Sun Jun 06, 2021 4:50 pm)
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Re: Coronavirus restrictions: are they legal
Picked up things in the news today about people who have had both jabs being granted more freedom than those who have not. By the time it could be implemented every adult would have had the opportunity to have had both jabs. It will be legal because there will be a cross party majority supporting it in Parliament along with overwhelming public opinion. This is obviously the way forward.
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- Lindsayt
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Re: Coronavirus restrictions: are they legal
If legislation is passed on the basis of lies or exageration presented to Parliament, then that legislation is not legal. There are laws on what Parliamnet can and cannot do. And there are laws on how Parliament should behave.
If legislation is passed that contradicts a previous piece of legislation, there may be scope to argue that the newer piece of legislation was passed by a Government that was over-stepping the mark.
In the United States they have a Constitution that over-rides ever law or attempted "law-enforcement".
In the UK, do we or we do not have fundamental laws that are the equivalent to a Constitution that over-ride everything?
If we don't, then shouldn't that be addressed? To stop rotten laws and and rotten law enforcement?
If legislation is passed that contradicts a previous piece of legislation, there may be scope to argue that the newer piece of legislation was passed by a Government that was over-stepping the mark.
In the United States they have a Constitution that over-rides ever law or attempted "law-enforcement".
In the UK, do we or we do not have fundamental laws that are the equivalent to a Constitution that over-ride everything?
If we don't, then shouldn't that be addressed? To stop rotten laws and and rotten law enforcement?
- CN211276
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Re: Coronavirus restrictions: are they legal
I have a O Level in British Constitution and can remember the basics. The US has a written constitution and we do not. The British Constitution is based on convention which goes back centuries before colonists founded the US. What goes through in Parliament is law. The fact of the matter is that the Covid restrictions are legal. I do not see any point in this thread continuing or ?why it was started in the first place, rambling on for 25 pages and 15 months. What is anyone who has lost a loved one going to think. Hardly an endorsment for HFS and NVA.
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- CycleCoach (Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:45 am) • SteveTheShadow (Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:23 am) • valvesRus (Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:31 am)
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Re: Coronavirus restrictions: are they legal
Threads 'end' when people stop contributing to them. They don't end because they offend sensibilities, unless the content is illegal or libellous. Questioning the basis for legislation is neither of those. It seems, to me, that dealing with a pandemic (and dealing with future pandemics) requires scrutiny and objectivity. Critical analysis and empathy are not mutually exclusive behaviours, though.
Regarding NVA, Richard's ideas came about by NOT blithely accepting what all those around him were saying. Regardless of whether I agree with Lindsay's view on this particular issue (I don't), I am certain that he is entitled to debate it, here, within the rules of the forum.
If everyone keep their posts on-topic, and plays the ball and not the man, then we should not find it too difficult to discuss the subject robustly.
Regarding NVA, Richard's ideas came about by NOT blithely accepting what all those around him were saying. Regardless of whether I agree with Lindsay's view on this particular issue (I don't), I am certain that he is entitled to debate it, here, within the rules of the forum.
If everyone keep their posts on-topic, and plays the ball and not the man, then we should not find it too difficult to discuss the subject robustly.
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Re: Coronavirus restrictions: are they legal
One of the forum rules is: "No continuous repeating of the same post or the same point within a post". Has this not been breached?
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Re: Coronavirus restrictions: are they legal
I completely disagree!
There are a number of reason for that, firstly the statistical basis; deaths within 28 days of a positive test is not a good basis for reporting as it shows no correlation between death and the positive test.
We have never been told the percentage of positive tests, just numbers of positive tests. Carry out more tests and you will get more positive results, irrespective of the purpose of the test. The proportion of positive tests is what matters.
We have never been told the percentage of false positive tests, yes there is a percentage of positive tests, by governments own admission one test showed an 18% rate, others appear to be much worse but I have no documentation.
Surgical masks are useful for 20 minutes, according to a friend who was a surgeon, but people use the same one for hours on end, doesn't fill me with confidence in their efficacy.
We need to debate the whole matter because it is of importance, simply accepting what we are told without proof or evidence is extremely dangerous. At every stage parliament should have been asking for evidence that what was proposed was effective, it didn't. The house of Lords should have been asking for evidence, it didn't. The Church of England should have been asking for evidence, it didn't. Neither did many other groups that had influence ask for what any competent investigator would have considered basic procedure. We have had little hard evidence but lots of acceptance of opinion.
Democracy is based on contrary opinions.
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Re: Coronavirus restrictions: are they legal
I don't believe so. Ideas are being developed and different views are being explored.
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Re: Coronavirus restrictions: are they legal
As I wrote above, I don’t know on what specific basis the uk government presented legislation on face coverings. (might this be available in some SAGE minutes somewhere?)
But I seem to recall that in general studies find mask efficacy at around 75% for limiting the spread of respiratory diseases. I presume Google would track these down pretty easily. (Tho I imagine double blind RCTs for the effects of mask wearing on coronavirus community transmission in a pandemic would be pretty thin on the ground this time last year.)
I don’t know what precisely SAGE / UK government looked at 12 months ago, but 75% would be a pretty seductive general figure to someone who is responsible for public health when 100s of people are dying every day.
Is it true that unproven efficacy alone makes legislation illegal? Genuine question.
Edit... I’ve just had a quick look, and I think this Chinese study was one of the first into mask efficacy.
“Face mask use by the primary case and family contacts before the primary case developed symptoms was 79% effective in reducing transmission.”
Looks like it came out in May 2020, so could’ve played a part in UK government thinking...? https://gh.bmj.com/content/bmjgh/5/5/e002794.full.pdf
But I seem to recall that in general studies find mask efficacy at around 75% for limiting the spread of respiratory diseases. I presume Google would track these down pretty easily. (Tho I imagine double blind RCTs for the effects of mask wearing on coronavirus community transmission in a pandemic would be pretty thin on the ground this time last year.)
I don’t know what precisely SAGE / UK government looked at 12 months ago, but 75% would be a pretty seductive general figure to someone who is responsible for public health when 100s of people are dying every day.
Is it true that unproven efficacy alone makes legislation illegal? Genuine question.
Edit... I’ve just had a quick look, and I think this Chinese study was one of the first into mask efficacy.
“Face mask use by the primary case and family contacts before the primary case developed symptoms was 79% effective in reducing transmission.”
Looks like it came out in May 2020, so could’ve played a part in UK government thinking...? https://gh.bmj.com/content/bmjgh/5/5/e002794.full.pdf
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