Definition

All general audio posts go here.
Forum rules
1. No ad-hominem
2. No spamming or shilling
User avatar
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Posts: 28227
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:26 pm
Location: Muppet Labs
Great Britain

Definition

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Thu May 17, 2018 1:00 pm

Hi-Fi System - Sound largely at the expense of music

Music System - Music largely at the expense of sound

Simplistic as not all hi-fi criteria are destructive to music, and obviously music still exists even after the pursuit of the worst corruption of music that is hi-fi.

The corruption and mind set can be seen very easily, if you naturally describe your system in sound (hi-fi) terms then you are in the trap, but if you naturally talk about it in the terms of your music, then you are on the right path. One leads you to joy, the other leads around in circles to finally giving up or disappearing up your own arse, last two both likely with an empty pocket.

User avatar
alfafan123
Posts: 167
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 4:59 pm
Location: West Sussex
Great Britain

Re: Definition

Unread post by alfafan123 » Fri May 18, 2018 8:26 am

....I don't always agree with the Doc but this is so true and after 45+ years on this road to nowhere I have realised that musical enjoyment and fun are usually inversely related to the cost of the gear. Witness my P20/A20/JBLs which just make music and make me smile in contrast to my main system which frequently irritates the hell out of me.

User avatar
Fretless
Posts: 3250
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 12:15 pm
Location: Somewhere in Holland
Netherlands

Re: Definition

Unread post by Fretless » Fri May 18, 2018 8:52 am

The trouble with 'HiFi' is that you just have to listen to it critically.
A stereo that you set up for fun in your work-space (for instance) mostly has you foot-tapping and singing along. No expectations - only music.
NVA: P50sa - SSP - A40 - LS6 - Cube3
Digits: RPi 2B / Allo DigiOne / Volumio / Tomanek ULPS / AQ Jitterbug
CD Transport: Cambridge CXC DAC: Metrum Acoustics Musette
Cans: AudioQuest NightHawk Digital i/c: Oxypure OCC coax & optical

User avatar
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Posts: 28227
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:26 pm
Location: Muppet Labs
Great Britain

Re: Definition

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Fri May 18, 2018 10:57 am

More definition and signs of the difference.

Hi-fi system - means adding things, making it more complex, any new thing, magic wooden boxes, lump of dried Elk turd, magic stones, fuses, mains cables, meters, bling, knobs, magic feet, cable lifters...................etc etc. Look at Russ Andrew catalogue and the MCRU copy, more things to get in the way of the music and of course prime motive TO CREATE SLURP.. The add on slurpers, then you have the primary slurpers who sell you the stupidly priced over blinged crap in the first place like Coherent and Elite.

Music system - means none of this, music means getting shite out of the way of the music, KISS is the law. Having established what makes the music spend the money on that, everything else throw away or sell on to some other mug.

What this means is you have a path that gives you more music with costs that are justified very easily by the results WITH YOUR MUSIC. No hi-fi reviewer or hi-fi guru words required, just music lover words. But it is largely one or the other, mix and match between the two types has odd effects, solving some problems ignoring others. Best to start again - simply, understand the process, and grow into it. Many many here will confirm this process.

The old stuff from before the *industry* took over and created hi-fi (the origins of the word were good and for good reasons - it has been used) is still valid for many people, like old valves, old designs. The reason because it was simple and designed based on it are simple, but as Steve (the shadow) has shown even there complication and bullshit has fed it. In this case it is "look at me, look how clever I am" hurting the basis of a good simplicity based DIY hobby In the process creating the Gurus, more words, more equations, more bullshit, by far the worst offender I have seen is on AudioTalk and calls himself ScotMoose, so he has had my pisstake, I just can't resist poking these people on your behalf.

Yes it means turning around and many will find that hard to do as it makes them look stupid, or for many just to agree with me even if I am right is going a step too far. To be honest with you there are many industries being effected by this disease. Simplicity, skill, hand built craftsmenship, looking at the result in music instead of slurp, cars for one. Electric motors lots of new type batteries, some seats, and something to keep the weather out = car.

It is because of this and the threat to the industry slurp I represent (in principle not in size) is why I have been created as the DEVIL and MAD, fighting me is easier than fighting my words.

User avatar
savvypaul
Posts: 1906
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:14 pm
Location: Durham
Contact:
Great Britain

Re: Definition

Unread post by savvypaul » Fri May 18, 2018 11:22 am

Complex HiFi add-ons feed paranoid anxiety.

Keep It Simple System feeds the soul.

:guiness;
"Even men with steel hearts love to see a dog on the pitch, It generates a warmth around the ground that augurs well for mankind."

NVA BMU / WTL Versalex / Transfiguration Axia /NVA Phono2 w/ 2nd PSU / GSP Revelation C / Vortexbox Appliance NAS Server / Sonore microRendu USB streamer w/ LPSU / Chord 2Qute USB dac / NVA P90sa / NVA A80MK2 (bass) / NVA A70 MK2 (tweeters) / NVA Cube 1 / NVA TIS MK1 / NVA SSPMK2 / NVA LS6 / NVA AP10H (& 1x additional PS) / Audeze LCD-2

User avatar
SteveTheShadow
Posts: 920
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:24 pm
Location: S Yorks
Great Britain

Re: Definition

Unread post by SteveTheShadow » Fri May 18, 2018 1:15 pm

I've had to go right back to basics, with sound systems. Got burned by Linn/Naim bullshit, then nearly burned myself with complicating my own DIY stuff.

I think I've now reached a situation where the system actually plays music. First it was the A20/P20 combination that started to make me think, then the DIY mutant NVA amp, pushed the point home a little bit more. After that it was the semi-omni speakers I developed.
These were/are lovely speakers, but again, I came to realise that they are a mish-mash of too many influences, ie the transmission line cabinets are too complex and get in the way of the music with the way they fight the musicality of the up-firing main driver, with the ported bass effect which unfortunately I can no longer stand to listen to.

The Fane full range driver equipped, sealed box speakers I have finally ended up with, do everything right. They give good access to the music and complement the mutant NVA amp beautifully. Researching these drivers before I bought them was interesting. Some forum punters do "get" them, mainly those that have actually built something with them and are enjoying what they do.

Not many hi-fi DIYers have done anything with them yet as they are way too busy ruminating among themselves about the high Q making them no good for sealed boxes, no good for reflex boxes, no good for transmission line boxes, only any good for open baffles. Somebody really needs to tell Fane about the mistake they made, designing these drivers so that they don't work in boxes of any description.

The fact that I began the design of these speakers by basing them on Fane's suggestion of appropriate box size and type is neither here nor there. Pro sound system designers: what do they know? :lol:

Joking aside though, the simplicity philosophy is an excellent way to cut to the chase, get right in amongst the music and gain unprecedented enjoyment from your records, CDs, downloads, streaming or whatever you use. I've done it and there is no reason why others can't do it too. Hifi used to be exciting and still can be, if we ditch all the bullshit that surrounds the hobby.
I'm grateful that I was prodded into cutting the crap and listening to the music instead.
DIY NVA amplification ( roughly equivalent to NVA A60) BTE Designs passive preamp, BTE Designs Lenco L75 turntable, Rega R200 arm, Goldring E3 cartridge, NVA Phono 1
Musical Fidelity M1 DAC, AppleTV4 with Apple Music subscription, ripped CDs streamed via WD MyCloud Home Duo NAS, with PLEX media server.
Speakers - Sealed cabs with Fane 12-250-TC 12" full range drivers. Also, Winslow Burhoe/Roy Allison/Richard Dunn influenced semi-omnidirectional.

User avatar
slinger
Posts: 3481
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:30 pm
Location: The Garden of England
Great Britain

Re: Definition

Unread post by slinger » Fri May 18, 2018 1:50 pm

Beware of definitions. The same labels are defined very differently by different people, or groups. For instance, Currys still think they sell "Music Systems" and Argos sells "Hi-Fi," according to their adverts. :lol:

I understand what you mean though, As I've always said, both here and elsewhere, I'm interested in music rather than equipment. Equipment is a means to an end, That doesn't mean I don't want the best 'means' I can afford, but ultimately I have boxes that play my music, not music that shows how good my boxes are.
Amps - NVA P50, A30, A40, Stanislav Palo Tube Headphone Amp BB 85
Speakers - Monitor Audio Silver RX2
Cables - NVA LS1+LS3, SSC, Gotham S/PDIF, IBRA Optical
Digital - NAD C516BEE, SONY ST-SDB900 DAB TUNER, TEAC UD-H01 DAC
Analogue - Pro-Ject Debut Carbon Esprit SB, Graham Slee Gram Amp 2 Phono
Cans - Grado SR80, ATH-M50X

User avatar
savvypaul
Posts: 1906
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:14 pm
Location: Durham
Contact:
Great Britain

Re: Definition

Unread post by savvypaul » Fri May 18, 2018 1:59 pm

slinger wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 1:50 pm
...ultimately I have boxes that play my music, not music that shows how good my boxes are.
Like
"Even men with steel hearts love to see a dog on the pitch, It generates a warmth around the ground that augurs well for mankind."

NVA BMU / WTL Versalex / Transfiguration Axia /NVA Phono2 w/ 2nd PSU / GSP Revelation C / Vortexbox Appliance NAS Server / Sonore microRendu USB streamer w/ LPSU / Chord 2Qute USB dac / NVA P90sa / NVA A80MK2 (bass) / NVA A70 MK2 (tweeters) / NVA Cube 1 / NVA TIS MK1 / NVA SSPMK2 / NVA LS6 / NVA AP10H (& 1x additional PS) / Audeze LCD-2

User avatar
karatestu
Posts: 1198
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:40 pm
Location: North Yorkshire
Great Britain

Re: Definition

Unread post by karatestu » Fri May 18, 2018 4:01 pm

Coming from a mostly DIY angle I have witnessed myself what simplifying things can do for music playing abilities. Forget all the nonsense and some one telling you it wont work - try it yourself and then evaluate.

Simplifying things can only go so far though. I have simplified power supplies but the number of simple power supplies seems to be growing :roll: Goes against the KISS but works musically. For example NVA power amps and phono stages get more psu's as you go up the range. Clearly there is benefit as each is added.

Forget everything written by so called hifi guru's (Doc excepted), trust your own ears and listen to the music not the gear. Much effort, heartache and wasting of money avoided :guiness;
Naim, Linn & Harbeth fanboy

User avatar
CycleCoach
Posts: 249
Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:20 pm
Location: Kings Cliffe
Great Britain

Re: Definition

Unread post by CycleCoach » Fri May 18, 2018 4:16 pm

Listening to music and evaluating your system seem to be conflicting aims. I know which one I prefer doing!
Current System: Macbook Pro, Starting Point Systems DAC 3, NVA P50SA, NVA A20, NVA LS6, NVA Cube1

Post Reply