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Re: Doc modding Marantz imperial 7

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:09 am
by karatestu
Latteman wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:18 pm Do u remember being in Skool and playing with paper machie/ balloon - made a reasonably rigid structure- grownup version would be fibre glass-?????
Who could forget paper mache :grin: Yes, GRP (glass reinforced plastic) would be a good alternative. Balloons aren't completely round though are they?

As my wife likes the look of wood, I am leaning more in the direction of translam birch ply. Oh yes, I like to make things hard for myself but as well as the possible sonic improvements over a cube or cuboid I think they have the potential to look amazing. Personally I have become tired of looking at people's boring old square and oblong speakers (inc my monstrosities).

The translam method wastes a lot of wood but as always I wouldn't be throwing the excess away. Some of the circles left over could be used to make the smaller tweeter spheres and I am sure I can come up with a use for the rest. It's not in my nature to be wasteful. I have tried to recycle where possible but this build tends to be heading in a direction where I have to buy some wood :(

Re: Doc modding Marantz imperial 7

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:02 am
by karatestu
I am not sure what Doc would have made of where this is going . He probably would be sick of me not having anything finished after four years if faffing about :lol:

I have many things to thank him for. The knowledge of drivers without filters, doping, removing as many components as possible, box rigidity, ignoring the flat frequency response brigade, removing excessive wadding etc etc etc.

I am so glad I went down the force cancelling bipolar route. I keep banging on about it :roll: but when the back of the opposing drivers are rigidly connected (the more rigid the better) the reduction in cabinet resonance is remarkable. The other benefits are very worthwhile too - spl output increased by having another driver, baffle step compensation for free and without any music sapping components needed, IMD distortion reduced thru work being shared by two drivers.

I can't think of a subjective downside to the up and down firing bipolar mid bass. Twice the box volume is required, you need a specially designed stand because of the down firing mid and there is a bipolar dip in response apparently but that is only heard on axis from what I have read. Being always off axis with the up and down firing mid bass makes it a non issue, I certainly don't hear anything untoward. Most bipolar speakers have the opposing drivers front and back firing which causes all sorts of problems including having to have the speakers well away from the wall behind them.

Luckily with up and down firing 5" drivers I can still get the speakers close to the wall, even with the bipolar baffle step comp. That is very important for us with small rooms which have other uses like living. I even suspect that having the two drivers firing up and down helps to smooth out some room anomalies because of varying distance between ceiling and floor. Can't prove any of this though it's all purely subjective through actual listening and backed up by things gleaned from the web.

Getting rid of components in the chain (especially filters) has been really worthwhile musically. Don't need a padding resistor because of four tweeters wired in series (increased impedance) drops amplifier output just enough to match nicely with two mid bass. OK, I have replaced one resistor with three tweeter coils but the listening proved it was worth it.

The scariest bit was removing the speaker level high pass filter capacitor. I once tried removing it before and the sound wax awfully distorted (obviously) and I was lucky I didn't blow them. But when you move the filter cap required to the input of the power amp (passive line level filter not active :naughty:) the improvement is remarkable. A bit more jiggery pokery ended up with me removing the dc blocking filter from my cdp. Wow is all I can say about those changes.

I am set on having four tweeters firing in different directions. The reduction in distortion is VERY noticeable especially as we are dealing with a first order high pass. Many will poo poo this idea as the tweeters are not a single point source. I think the results are vastly superior to one tweeter and first order high pass filter as long as you get the tweeters as close together as possible and behind the up firing mid bass. Can't stress those two points enough.

I used to dismiss the effects of cabinet diffraction mainly because I hadn't time to investigate it and Doc wasn't too bothered about it - cubes with 90 degree corners, drivers not rebated). My experiments lead me to believe it can have a dramatic effect. Going from a cube tweeter pod to a rounded corner dice shape was a big improvement as regards imaging, soundstage and extra detail heard. So I am taking it to it's logical conclusion which is smooth spherical enclosures.

That's what these speakers are all about. I don't expect everybody will agree with what I have written but this is the way MY ears have led me.

Re: Doc modding Marantz imperial 7

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:49 am
by antonio66
Four tweeters firing different directions reminds me of my old Shahinian Obelisks, 2 tweeters and four super tweeters, no fatigue what so ever. Good luck with this Stu

Re: Doc modding Marantz imperial 7

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:28 am
by karatestu
antonio66 wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:49 am Four tweeters firing different directions reminds me of my old Shahinian Obelisks, 2 tweeters and four super tweeters, no fatigue what so ever. Good luck with this Stu
I have always been interested by Shahinian speakers. I think they need super tweeters because the tweeters all fire at the ceiling at various angles.

Super tweeters are likely to be a waste on me. Can't hear bugger all above 13khz :( Too much drumming and loud machinery

Re: Doc modding Marantz imperial 7

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:57 am
by Ithilstone
karatestu wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:09 am
As my wife likes the look of wood, I am leaning more in the direction of translam birch ply. Oh yes, I like to make things hard for myself but as well as the possible sonic improvements over a cube or cuboid I think they have the potential to look amazing. Personally I have become tired of looking at people's boring old square and oblong speakers (inc my monstrosities).

The translam method wastes a lot of wood but as always I wouldn't be throwing the excess away. Some of the circles left over could be used to make the smaller tweeter spheres and I am sure I can come up with a use for the rest. It's not in my nature to be wasteful. I have tried to recycle where possible but this build tends to be heading in a direction where I have to buy some wood :(
Is something like that (roughly) you are thinking of Stu?
http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/ellipsoid/

Re: Doc modding Marantz imperial 7

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:11 pm
by karatestu
Ithilstone wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:57 am
karatestu wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:09 am
As my wife likes the look of wood, I am leaning more in the direction of translam birch ply. Oh yes, I like to make things hard for myself but as well as the possible sonic improvements over a cube or cuboid I think they have the potential to look amazing. Personally I have become tired of looking at people's boring old square and oblong speakers (inc my monstrosities).

The translam method wastes a lot of wood but as always I wouldn't be throwing the excess away. Some of the circles left over could be used to make the smaller tweeter spheres and I am sure I can come up with a use for the rest. It's not in my nature to be wasteful. I have tried to recycle where possible but this build tends to be heading in a direction where I have to buy some wood :(
Is something like that (roughly) you are thinking of Stu?
http://www.ejjordan.co.uk/ellipsoid/
Hi Tomasz.

Yes that is the construction method. You can see the different layers of plywood in concentric rings. I don't plan to do an ellipsoid like in the link, just a plain old boring sphere with a mid bass firing up and down.

It is a very wasteful method especially with the sizes I need for a 35cm diameter sphere and I haven't priced it up yet :shock: At least some of the rings are smaller and can be cut from the circle left over from the biggest rings. And the tweeter spheres will use up more waste. It needs careful panning to make the best use of a sheet of baltic birch plywood.

Oh, and I need a wood lathe or some other method of turning it. How about using a Honda engine with reduction gearbox :lol: I've got one of them :think: Or tractor power take off :lol: - might be a bit fast and dangerous :think:

Re: Doc modding Marantz imperial 7

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:19 pm
by karatestu
The Achilles heel of this design is the stand or legs. I like the idea of three round legs (for better diffraction ofc) which are slightly splayed outwards and taper towards the floor. The tricky bit is getting them at the right angle and attaching them to the sphere.

I have had various ideas and can't decide on one atm. The one I was thinking of today at work involves one (or two) of the rings of birch ply having three little tabs which stick out at equal distance around the circumference. These can be angled to attach the legs to. I don't want a ring going all the way around as it will cause diffraction and I am trying to avoid as many sources of that as possible.

Re: Doc modding Marantz imperial 7

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:45 pm
by CycleCoach
My first thought was a giant egg-cup!

Re: Doc modding Marantz imperial 7

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:50 pm
by Ithilstone
karatestu wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:11 pm

Oh, and I need a wood lathe or some other method of turning it. How about using a Honda engine with reduction gearbox :lol: I've got one of them :think: Or tractor power take off :lol: - might be a bit fast and dangerous :think:
It was only as a example and I know you want sphere ;] I just wanted to know if that's the method of construction you are thinking of ( looks very labour intensive) and my next question would be if you need a wood lathe or some other ingenious method of finishing it - but it looks like you already thinking of it :grin: :grin: :grin:

Re: Doc modding Marantz imperial 7

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:39 pm
by karatestu
Ithilstone wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:50 pm
karatestu wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:11 pm

Oh, and I need a wood lathe or some other method of turning it. How about using a Honda engine with reduction gearbox :lol: I've got one of them :think: Or tractor power take off :lol: - might be a bit fast and dangerous :think:
It was only as a example and I know you want sphere ;] I just wanted to know if that's the method of construction you are thinking of ( looks very labour intensive) and my next question would be if you need a wood lathe or some other ingenious method of finishing it - but it looks like you already thinking of it :grin: :grin: :grin:
Yes it is going to take a long time and cause much chin scratching and possibly swearing :lol: But it doesn't really matter because it's taken four years to get this far, a couple more years won't make much difference :lol: :lol: