HiFi Subjectivist ¦ Audio Forum ¦ NVA User Group

Where have a said that, all I said was if so called classical music doesn't work well (as you said yours doesn't) then IME it is the system that causes this. That doesn't make it crap. I am trying to be constructive in this thread.

PRAT - Pace Rhythm and Timing, it was a marketing phrase used by Linn / Naim and the flat earth. Others jumped on board to get some crumbs that fell off the table.

Okay, more constructive.
Couldn't it just be that the way I am wired doesn't allow me to convince myself that what I'm hearing from a stereo system, even allowing for decent imaging and averagely faithful reproduction is convincing enough. It is after all an illusion of sorts.

So far! we only know what we know and what we have heard.

totally possible, some portion of the people can't get on with fake 3d fooling the eyes, why not the ears

Since when is it fooling, everything is fooling to a degree that is the monkey at work. It is so simple you buy what you enjoy your music with the most, and the losers will say you are fooling yourself - usual forum / hi-fi industry bullshit. Welder is happy and enjoys, my only point is don't close the mind or you may lose out on something you will find better, enjoy but keep an open mind.

Can we get back on subject or do I need to publish the OP again.

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: ↑Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:19 pm PRAT - Pace Rhythm and Timing, it was a marketing phrase used by Linn / Naim and the flat earth. Others jumped on board to get some crumbs that fell off the table.

PR@T was a term invented by Martin Colloms I remember and picked up on by the 'rhythm kings' of the era. I come from the previous 'tune dem' era, but I was doing that long before Linn came along....

This will seem like a ramble. Sorry...

I think many audiophiles (and most non-audiophiles) like to attach, in their minds, at least some scientific theory to the phrase 'high fidelity'. Measurements, low distortion, power...whatever. Closest to the 'original' sound, eh? It's easier and quicker to make assumptions based on specs than it is to actually get to hear the gear for real, in a real life setting. Specs are neat and tidy and 'comparable' and appeal to the 'logical' mind. People like to make tables, reviewers award percentage scores, we like things to be in order.

I see gear being recommended on forums because of'desirable' specs, or 'the sound' that magazines have attributed to it, but it's often pretty clear the person doing the recommending hasn't heard it in their own home. Still, we like to solve 'problems' for others - it increases our own significance, or so we think. Sometimes we want to be helpful, sometimes we want to be important.

We now even see dealers who can sell you the ultimate scientific theory...multi-driver active speakers with 'digital sound processing' software that can produce the 'perfect' sound in any room. Apparently, it doesn't matter if any of this gets in the way of the actual music as long as it conforms to the specifications. When I hear people coldly describing a sound that is 'flat respone, low distortion, full range'...I think, you poor fucking bastard. I'm welling up to Willie Nelson or punching the air to The Clash, or conducting Dvorak's New World Symphony...they're convincing themselves it must be right because the theory says so. Linn used to tell you that you weren't listening properly, these DSP dealers tell you that you don't really even need to listen at all (and certainly not with your eyes open) just check the laptop reports.

The other people who like specs, and I mean REALLY like specs are the marketing department. Marketeers want to make your mind up for you, before you have the chance to judge for yourself. Yes, you can go and listen to different gear at a dealer, but the 'messages' have already been driven home about what is 'best'. You think the 'star performer' sounds crap? Yeah, well those are not really the right records to judge it by...or you may simply be used to an inaccurate system at home.

For me, as and 'end consumer' of music, useful specs are...1. Is it safe? 2. Is it fit for purpose? 3. Is it reliable? When I get toward the end of my life, when I'm sat in my rocking chair on my porch, with a Winchester rifle cross my lap, I won't be thinking 'Shit, I wished I'd had lower distortion from my LPs'...I'll be smiling to myself that 'those Klipsch Heresys were the sort of speaker that made you wanna buy a Harley, smoke dope with your mates and go skinny dipping in the river'.

Can I put that sort of description into a logical table of comparison? Of course, not. But why does anyone want me to? My lived experience is MY lived experience. Do they not have their own ears and heart and soul to judge by? If I seem to enjoy a bit of kit and can describe why, then you might think it's something woth hearing for yourself, but no more.

If 'bad' specs – uneven FR, high distortion, whatever, are getting in the way of the music then you will soon know it. You will know that the music is 'wrong'. You can also just say, at this stage, that the sound is wrong...you just know it it isn't right. It is unbalanced or nasty and you don't even start to connect with the music.

You know, I'm not sure 'hifi' actually means anything. There are systems that play music, and there are systems that play more music...and there are systems that make 'impressive' sounds, but they don't really play music. If I told my mate to come round 'cos I've just got a bit of kit that is 'high fidelity', it would take him one tenth of a second to call me a dickhead.

I'm sat listening listening to Charley Crockett singing 'Brothers Of A Bottle' and his hand is reaching across a scratched old wooden table to slide me another Bud...

Bartender come over here
I want to buy the next round of beer
Boys name your poison, don't nobody pass
We're all brother of a bottle an' glass.

Measure that against the original sound!

I know it is different for designers. They have to know how stuff works and why (doesn't mean they have to cut their ears off, though). But, for me...

Specs and Sound are 'tick boxes'...either acceptable or not acceptable. Everything else is music.

savvypaul wrote: ↑Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:04 pm If I told my mate to come round 'cos I've just got a bit of kit that is 'high fidelity', it would take him one tenth of a second to call me a dickhead. .

I think I could get on with your mate. As soon as anyone uses the term Hi Fi they go on my potential dickhead list.
It's a stereo. It plays records tapes and files and CD's etc.