HiFi Subjectivist ¦ Audio Forum ¦ NVA User Group

OK, I used it with a DAC that only goes to 192k. Would be interesting to hear the two together some time.

I compared the direct and up-sampled output with the same DAC, yes.

Would be interesting to hear this against a good NOS dac playing the same music. Recently I have been looking at NOS ladder dacs and wondering if it is maybe the better way to go. KISS. I have to wait for funds to replenish though as I just got myself a GL75 project.

Recently I have been looking at NOS ladder dacs and wondering if it is maybe the better way to go. KISS.

The problem (IMHO) with talking about KISS is that we normally make a choice of what actually is simple based on gut feeling instead of any reality. There is a good argument that a delta sigma dac is simpler than a R2R ladder dac, that’s why they started making them after all.

So far, I have found the NOS approach (as used in the Metrum DAC's) to be more musically satisfying than any oversampling systems that I have heard (e.g.: Hegel, MF, Mark Levinson, Moon, Cambridge). The direct processing of 16-bit (CD) datastream to an analogue signal without oversampling / filtering / general-messing-about, keeps things somehow 'intact'.

However the idea of an upscaler that takes this same signal and refines it by a factor of 16x does look appealing (if done well) and I would certainly be interested to hear what it can do.

My experience of the Mscaler and also 192hz streams has lead me to the conclusion that standard 16 Bit 44hz is somewhat lacking. I am now better able to understand why many prefer a top quality analogue front end, inspite of all its well documented imperfections, to digital.

£5 is all I will spend on a DAC and spend lots more on its power supply.

Is the small amount of benefit worth these ridiculous amounts of money being spent.

Fretless wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:08 am So far, I have found the NOS approach (as used in the Metrum DAC's) to be more musically satisfying than any oversampling systems that I have heard (e.g.: Hegel, MF, Mark Levinson, Moon, Cambridge). The direct processing of 16-bit (CD) datastream to an analogue signal without oversampling / filtering / general-messing-about, keeps things somehow 'intact'.

However the idea of an upscaler that takes this same signal and refines it by a factor of 16x does look appealing (if done well) and I would certainly be interested to hear what it can do.

The problem is (and I don't mean to be insulting but...) you have a word soup of things there (NOS,oversampling,filtering,refines) and without being clear what you mean (or what others mean) by them its hard to be precise.

Chord are not helping, what does "refines it by a factor of 16x" actually mean? Fundamentally all they can do is oversample and filter. The type of filter will matter, but its still a filter. Generally somewhere in the system there will be a reconstruction filter, either at the end of the DAC or in your speakers or somewhere between. Upsampleing means that filter have a higher frequency corner, but its still there. Upsampleing and then filtering in the digital domain is not a fundamental different operation to NOS and a output filter.

My lack of technical experience does show itself here. Just me saying what I have discovered first-hand and from the information available.

Still on that learning curve ....

There's a lot supposedly 'wrong' with NOS DAC's and the whole point of oversampling in the first place I gather, was to put the 'effects' of the filters as far away from the human-audio range as possible. I suspect the Mscaler is there 'because it can be' and to show what a clever bunny Rob Watts undoubtedly thinks he is (and probably is in real life as his Chord DAC designs are apparently technically about as good as it gets). What we 'hear' from such things is almost certainly the output stage and not really the digital part at all I reckon.

What recent reading up has shown is that many hi-res formats and DACs introduce shedloads of ultrasonic and rf muck into the chain which red-book CD all but eliminates and which may upset some amps and even tweeters, the best of the latter which extend to 40kHz and beyond. All this cleverness seems to have nowt to do with the music except for the fact that some music masters are 'remastered' with more care to make the hi-res format sound supposedly 'better.' Doing direct comparisons can be worse too as levels can vary (we/I usually prefer the very-slightly louder one in direct comparisons and this decision changes if the slightly louder one becomes the slightly quieter one).

That little DAC-For-A-Tenner (or less) really does show how far we've moved on and it appears that for musical sound quality, most DACs over a hundred quid are only really 'better' in academic, but not usually audible ways if you can't *see* what's being used, the rest going into the case and facilities in many cases. In fact, many mega-grand DAC confections costing several thousand quid or more are WORSE as the designers twiddle and fart around with the chipset with no real knowledge of what they're actually doing - apparently. Interesting comment I read yesterday about DCS - they reportedly used to do superb professional DACs at high but not stratospheric prices, but the great success of their insanely priced OTT domestic confections caused them to follow the huge profits available and abandon the pro market apparently... At the other end, earlier Schiit DACs really were in measurable terms, but apparently they've updated their test gear (needed in design of such tech) and things are turning round for them apparently.

I am highly suspicious of recently designed DACs and their RF performance, and I am sure some NVA amps have been damaged by them. It reminded me of the arseholes at the BBC back in the early 70's suddenly making speaker 10 times more complicated and blaming some of the amps around then for not coping with them - cart before horse - cart before horse !!!!!!!!!

EVERY TIME in music when you complicate things you make them worse musically and more difficult to accommodate - it is ludicrous and all for the sake of finding a bullshit to help YOU part with your money.