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Lets not forget that the vote was illegal. The leave campaign broke the financing rules. There can be no complaints about a second referendum, especially as the margin of victory was so small.

Classicrock wrote: ↑Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:18 pm The important thing is most people who voted leave would have accepted the result. The remainers refuse to accept the result and are trying every trick to overturn it. These people are anti democratic, think they know best and think leave voters are thick.

It may be that they are anti democratic (whatever that means in this case) but if the remainders (and I am one) honestly believe that it will be a disaster for the people of this country, then I don't see any way that with a clear conscience they could stand back and do nothing.

CN211276 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:41 pm Lets not forget that the vote was illegal. The leave campaign broke the financing rules. There can be no complaints about a second referendum, especially as the margin of victory was so small.

It is a moot point as the Remain campaign spent several million pounds more in total.

Lurcher300b wrote: ↑Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:37 pm

savvypaul wrote: ↑Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:02 pm We are trying to get the eggs out of a cake that we baked over 40 years ago. It is a hugely complex and contentious task.

We need to think of it in terms of a ten year transition, minimum.

Or actually get behind the EU project 100% and turn it into a success with us as part of it instead of sitting in the wings complaining. It makes no difference is I am governed from London or Brussels, but so far it seems to me that Brussels wins on all the things I find important.

That's it. The EU needs a substantial renovation. On the other side, it has a lot of advantages I wouldn't like to miss anymore, like free travel (went to Albania and the first border I had to show my passport, was the Hungarian/Serbian one, that's nice!), free choose of working and living place, no need to pick up ordered goods after long waiting times at the customs. If one after the other leaves, at last there will be two two countries allowing their people to do the Schengen things, and that was it! It always takes some time, but the EU is able to learn: Italian farmers in Umbria are not forced anymore to grow strawberries instead of wine ( a great EU idea in the eighties).

CN211276 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:41 pm Lets not forget that the vote was illegal. The leave campaign broke the financing rules. There can be no complaints about a second referendum, especially as the margin of victory was so small.

The official leave campaign had nothing to do with the other campaign that allegedly broke some rules. So we keep having referendums until we get a large margin one way or another? If it goes 52/48 the other way it won't be accepted. Frankly it will be fixed if the 'People's Vote' campaigners have their way. Perhaps best of 3 or best of 5? What about the leaflets the govt put out for remain that were at taxpayers expense? The remain campaign had far more money behind it than leave.

Personally I don't like being laughed at as a nation even if we sort of deserve it, at least it sort of reflects democracy in action. I started as a stay in-er, change to a sort of outer at irritation with the Brussels egotists, to a couldn't feckin' care less bored with it, to be getting seriously pissed off with the blackmail (especially by the Irish gov) that EU is willing to go along with. The Irish Question has haunted us for 150 years in the present UK political concept, even the names of the parties were changed because of it. Tories to Conservatives, Whigs to Liberals. AND we still have the stoopidity, yes NI should be part of SI but not with a war, but that may be the only way. BUT also SI and NI should be out of the EU and part of the United Kingdom as Scotland and Wales are now.

Apart from EU bribing them with grants and special treatment they know bloody well the combined entity now facing across the Atlantic and to the rest of the world would be far more profitable than trying to prop up a failed political experiment that is doomed to failure.

The Southern Irish should be part of the UK?

Did you really mean to say that?

Yep! if we hadn't fecked it up 130 years ago then it would have the status of a Dominion (one option) or as self governing part of the UK. You should read the history, it nearly got to agreement, but the result led to the troubles, NI and SI would be one entity with its own parliament within the UK, like NI is now when they can stop being eeediots about it, but the hatred is so deep seated now because of all the violence.

It is logical and in many ways it actually exists now, this is why the separation is so complicated

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: ↑Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:07 pm Yep! if we hadn't fecked it up 130 years ago then it would have the status of a Dominion (one option) or as self governing part of the UK. You should read the history, it nearly got to agreement, but the result led to the troubles, NI and SI would be one entity with its own parliament within the UK, like NI is now when they can stop being eeediots about it, but the hatred is so deep seated now because of all the violence.

It is logical and in many ways it actually exists now, this is why the separation is so complicated

My question is in the context of where we are now. There's been a lot of history in the last 500 years, let alone 130.

My father was from a large Irish Catholic family just south of the border. I've been visiting NI and SI for the last 40 odd years and done a fair bit of reading in that time.

Leave that stuff up to the people who live there, imo.

Agreed we are talking at cross purposes I am talking about British politics and how the Irish question influenced it, even the structure of our parliament and the main parties were changed and developed by it. It preoccupied latter Victorian politics. The battle between Gladstone and Disraeli for one. Before this period it was just war and rebellions, but there was a concrete effort to solve it killed off by the Tories. It saw the Gov brought down and changed by it and the same will happen now, it is still the problem that most effects the UK, and the EU have got involved paddling around and mixing it up again - they will regret it, the same as everyone does who tries to interfere.

Who is to blame, well everyone - the Popes over the ages, King of Spain, King of France, The Dutch, The Scots, The English - starting with Elizabeth 1 then Cromwell, then William and Mary. Best time in the relationship was the Industrial Revolution, they got work, they virtually built the industrial revolution in the Canals and the railways, we could not have done it without them. Once again we needed immigrants the same as we still need them. You can see all the parallels in modern and Victorian time, hells bells more Irish live in the UK than live in Ireland FFS