Hi-Fi Honesty

[karatestu]

A bunch of sad, pathetic obssessive old men who never get any sex.

Obviously I wasn't talking about myself with the no sex bit. I get absolutely loads of the best sex you've ever heard. World beating sex in fact. I can prove it if anybody wants to pop round.

[Geoff.R.G]

Stu, it could be argued that, being in the band, you haven’t a clue what it sounds like to the audience.

As I have said before, what you get from a recording isn’t the original sound but what the mastering engineer wants you to hear. Many recordings don’t begin to achieve Peter Walker’s “closest approach to the original sound”.

[CN211276]

From what I've seen Lindsay, you do disagreement very well. Do you agree ?

I don't think anybody is capable of being truly honest about hifi. Too much vested interest, ego and pound notes involved. It would be such a better world if we all argued about how shite our music reproduction equipment is. I would actually have a chance of winning that one.

The world is full of snobs it seems. And armchair experts and wannabe so called gurus. At one point I actually thought I knew something but eventually I realised I know next to nothing and nobody actually cares or believes what I think.

I often read people saying something along the lines of "they can't judge because they have never heard live music ". Is there actually anybody who has never heard live music ? I will state this now and this alone makes me more qualified to judge musical, reproduction equipment than all you sad tossers on here I have been to more gigs than you lot put together. In fact I've probably played in the fecking band more times than you've had hot dinners. So listen to me mutha fuckers, I'm the only one here who knows what a musical instrument actually sounds like.

Seriously - the above is what the argument sometimes boils down to. Pathetic isn't it. Whilst it is true that I have played more gigs than I can remember I don't actually believe that makes me any more worthy to judge than anybody else. Hifi is in fact shite compared to the real thing. Realising that saves a lot of wasted time, effort and argument. It is pointless trying to reproduce the live band sound, it can't be done.

I don't actually know anybody who cares about hifi. Wouldn't that be a relief Not caring is the way forward. What the bloody hell is wrong with us ? A bunch of sad, pathetic obssessive old men who never get any sex.

Your post raises some great points on the theme of hi-fi honesty.

Honesty about hi-fi is relative. Some people do more honest evaluations and reporting than others. Richard Dunn was as good as anyone I've come across at that. He is my role model in this area.

He had also packed a lot of experience of sighted and unsighted listening tests into his life.
I found that him and I were always in total agreement about the differences in sound at bake-offs that we both attended. It's just that he'd do it in seconds, wheras I would take longer to come to my conclusions.

I think that bake-offs are the most effective tool for changing other's minds when it comes to their views on hi-fi.
But even then I've come across some people who's minds are not for turning.
With those people I put them in the category of: don't take anything they say about hi-fi seriously. And interacting with them is like poking an ants nest.

Some systems get a lot closer to sounding like actual musicians playing actual instruments (including vocals) in your room. A good recording that one has never heard before on a good system at a generous volume is an event. An enjoyable event.

You do know people that care about hi-fi. I care about it. In proportion to all the other stuff in my life.

Oh, and one thing I try to do when talking about equipment is to describe the relative sonic shortcomings as well as any good points. EG my EV Sentry III's have average bass and good midrange and good treble. My Bozak Symphony's are sort of the opposite to that.

[karatestu]

Stu, it could be argued that, being in the band, you haven’t a clue what it sounds like to the audience.

As I have said before, what you get from a recording isn’t the original sound but what the mastering engineer wants you to hear. Many recordings don’t begin to achieve Peter Walker’s “closest approach to the original sound”.

Very good point Geoff. On stage sounds nothing like what the audience hears.

My son is learning drums. Usually it is on an electronic kit but recently I put him behind my acoustic set. I stood and listened out front. My kit sounded very different to what you get sat in the hot seat. It sounded loads better Not sure what's going on but it must be something to do with the room.

[Geoff.R.G]

Stu, it could be argued that, being in the band, you haven’t a clue what it sounds like to the audience.

As I have said before, what you get from a recording isn’t the original sound but what the mastering engineer wants you to hear. Many recordings don’t begin to achieve Peter Walker’s “closest approach to the original sound”.

Very good point Geoff. On stage sounds nothing like what the audience hears.

My son is learning drums. Usually it is on an electronic kit but recently I put him behind my acoustic set. I stood and listened out front. My kit sounded very different to what you get sat in the hot seat. It sounded loads better Not sure what's going on but it must be something to do with the room.

Aside from the fact that you are in a different position relative to the kit? In a band each musician hears their own instrument and pays less attention to the others. Just look at the foldback settings. The audience hears the instruments together and, one hopes, in harmony with each other. The band doesn’t directly produce what the audience hears, that is what the sound man/woman does using the musicians’ work the way a painter uses colour. Ideally of course the band works with the engineer to achieve the desired result.

You might, reading the above, just get an idea of why my Hi-Fi doesn’t get the attention I used to give it. I can drive my wife to distraction when I hear a mix that has the backing vocals too far back, or forward. One thing I will say is that I have never heard a live recording that captures the sound of the performance. A studio recording is something else.

[Lindsayt]

I have a live recording of 2 men with their guitars on 1/4" 2-track tape. I'd rate this as sounding near as damnit the same as a live gig.
Bearing in mind that such gigs are often played through mediocre PA systems.

[karatestu]

From what I've seen Lindsay, you do disagreement very well. Do you agree ?

I don't think anybody is capable of being truly honest about hifi. Too much vested interest, ego and pound notes involved. It would be such a better world if we all argued about how shite our music reproduction equipment is. I would actually have a chance of winning that one.

The world is full of snobs it seems. And armchair experts and wannabe so called gurus. At one point I actually thought I knew something but eventually I realised I know next to nothing and nobody actually cares or believes what I think.

I often read people saying something along the lines of "they can't judge because they have never heard live music ". Is there actually anybody who has never heard live music ? I will state this now and this alone makes me more qualified to judge musical, reproduction equipment than all you sad tossers on here I have been to more gigs than you lot put together. In fact I've probably played in the fecking band more times than you've had hot dinners. So listen to me mutha fuckers, I'm the only one here who knows what a musical instrument actually sounds like.

Seriously - the above is what the argument sometimes boils down to. Pathetic isn't it. Whilst it is true that I have played more gigs than I can remember I don't actually believe that makes me any more worthy to judge than anybody else. Hifi is in fact shite compared to the real thing. Realising that saves a lot of wasted time, effort and argument. It is pointless trying to reproduce the live band sound, it can't be done.

I don't actually know anybody who cares about hifi. Wouldn't that be a relief Not caring is the way forward. What the bloody hell is wrong with us ? A bunch of sad, pathetic obssessive old men who never get any sex.

Your post raises some great points on the theme of hi-fi honesty.

Honesty about hi-fi is relative. Some people do more honest evaluations and reporting than others. Richard Dunn was as good as anyone I've come across at that. He is my role model in this area.

He had also packed a lot of experience of sighted and unsighted listening tests into his life.
I found that him and I were always in total agreement about the differences in sound at bake-offs that we both attended. It's just that he'd do it in seconds, wheras I would take longer to come to my conclusions.

I think that bake-offs are the most effective tool for changing other's minds when it comes to their views on hi-fi.
But even then I've come across some people who's minds are not for turning.
With those people I put them in the category of: don't take anything they say about hi-fi seriously. And interacting with them is like poking an ants nest.

Some systems get a lot closer to sounding like actual musicians playing actual instruments (including vocals) in your room. A good recording that one has never heard before on a good system at a generous volume is an event. An enjoyable event.

You do know people that care about hi-fi. I care about it. In proportion to all the other stuff in my life.

Oh, and one thing I try to do when talking about equipment is to describe the relative sonic shortcomings as well as any good points. EG my EV Sentry III's have average bass and good midrange and good treble. My Bozak Symphony's are sort of the opposite to that.

Good post Lindsay. Richard and his knowledge are very much missed. I had some fun reading this thread again from the start.

I am extremely limited in my exposure to different gear. I have never been to a show, been to one bake off at the pope's and only owned a very limited number of products myself. So I do know that I should not be listened to when commenting on gear I have never even seen never mind heard. To my knowledge I have never heard Tannoy, any BBC designs anything by ATC or AVI .

So I know I shouldn't comment on stuff I know nothing about. That leaves Linn, Naim, Avondale and the stuff I have learned from my diy adventures. I often think I should get out more or get a job in a hifi shop. I refuse to become a box swapper.

I think you said in the past that the psychology and way hifi nerds behave is more interesting than the gear itself. I think I would have to agree. There is a great deal of dishonesty on forums and luckily I can now spot it. God help some of the newbies looking for honest advice.

[Geoff.R.G]

I have a live recording of 2 men with their guitars on 1/4" 2-track tape. I'd rate this as sounding near as damnit the same as a live gig.
Bearing in mind that such gigs are often played through mediocre PA systems.

Indeed simple set ups like that can be recorded very well indeed but as the set up becomes more complex something, inevitably it seems, gets lost. Not that I don't record things more that I accept the limitations. involved.

[CN211276]

I think Richard had it nailed and following his lead has worked for me .Best component is no component . Phase is something that I don't completely understand but it is clear to me that filters which mess with the timing of the musical event make music sound unnatural and wrong. All in my humble opinion of course.

[Copperblue]

@Karatestu has it about right……

To quote the great modern day philosopher, Michael Corleone, “Senator. We are all part of the same hypocrisy…..”

I mean, NVA sells through dealers now as well……

Best festive wishes
CB