Defending your home.

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savvypaul
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Re: Defending your home.

Unread post by savvypaul »

guydarryl wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:14 pm
savvypaul wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:04 pm
guydarryl wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:02 pm wonderful with wife and kids, just breaks in to oap's house in the early hours of the morning, threatens householder with screwdriver and has previous - sorry heard this sort of shit before.
Death penalty for all burglars, then?
Please don't: I have grown to expect more from you.

No where do I say or suggest anything so ridiculous. If someone feels threatened and protects themselves then that can hardly be related to death penalty.

I just get pissed off with the hand wringing post event from friends and relatives about how wonderful people were when their actions show that they really were not.
My question was to highlight the logical extrapolation of the view that states 'he's just a scrote burglar it doesn't matter if he dies'.

I'm not defending the burglar. I'm defending the law.

I don't have sympathy for the burglar. If the homeowner acted purely out of self defence then I have deep sympathy for him - both for the trauma of being violated and for knowing that they have taken someone's life, even through self-defence. I dread to imagine how horrible both of those events must be, especially at a physically vulnerable age.

If the evidence suggests the homeowner chased after the burglar, perhaps out of revenge, and stabbed and killed him, then that is murder and the homeowner should face trial.

I am withholding my own judgement as I don't know the facts. Does anyone, here?

I have sympathy for the innocent children that the burglar has left behind, regardless of the above.
Last edited by savvypaul on Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Defending your home.

Unread post by savvypaul »

George Hincapie wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:21 pm
savvypaul wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:06 pm
George Hincapie wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:05 pm You aren't seriously defending a burglar are you?
Of course not. I'm defending the law.
What precisely is it you're defending? I just want to make sure I understand where you are coming from.

Certain US States have the 'Make my day' law, which is a no retreat principle on your own property. You could shoot a burglar and kill them and face zero legal action. That's what we ought to have in the UK; a man's home used to be his castle.
I am defending the equal application of the rule of law for all

Re the US 'make my day' law...that is your opinion, but (thankfully, imo) not the law in the UK.

I wouldn't be proposing the US gun laws as a desirable model. But, again, that is just my opinion.
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Re: Defending your home.

Unread post by savvypaul »

George Hincapie wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:22 pm
savvypaul wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:17 pm Due process must be followed. The law must be applied in all cases.

If the homeowner acted purely in self-defence then he will not be convicted of murder. But if, for example, he chased after the burglar out of revenge then he will be convicted of murder - because that is, murder.

We know very little of the facts, but it is possible to have sympathy for the homeowner and, at the same time, have sympathy for the innocent children that the burglar leaves behind.
Is anyone suggesting there shouldn't be sympathy for his children?
In the rush to be happy that the burglar is dead, was anyone (apart from kimangelis) suggesting that there should?
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Re: Defending your home.

Unread post by George Hincapie »

savvypaul wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:39 pm
George Hincapie wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:22 pm
savvypaul wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:17 pm Due process must be followed. The law must be applied in all cases.

If the homeowner acted purely in self-defence then he will not be convicted of murder. But if, for example, he chased after the burglar out of revenge then he will be convicted of murder - because that is, murder.

We know very little of the facts, but it is possible to have sympathy for the homeowner and, at the same time, have sympathy for the innocent children that the burglar leaves behind.
Is anyone suggesting there shouldn't be sympathy for his children?
In the rush to be happy that the burglar is dead, was anyone (apart from kimangelis) suggesting that there should?
You were, unless my eyes are deceiving me...

Why do you give a single fuck that a criminal was killed? I don't understand the need for your sarcasm...

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Re: Defending your home.

Unread post by savvypaul »

George Hincapie wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:45 pm
savvypaul wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:39 pm
George Hincapie wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:22 pm

Is anyone suggesting there shouldn't be sympathy for his children?
In the rush to be happy that the burglar is dead, was anyone (apart from kimangelis) suggesting that there should?
You were, unless my eyes are deceiving me...

Why do you give a single fuck that a criminal was killed? I don't understand the need for your sarcasm...
I am certainly capable of sarcasm but none is intended here.

IF the burglar was murdered, not killed in self-defence, then murder is murder, regardless of who it is. I care about the law.
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Re: Defending your home.

Unread post by zebbo »

Well maybe the kids might actually be better off being brought up by the, hopefully, more decent mother alone rather than the thieving scroat father.
Just imagine if that old boy was your father, how would you feel about it then eh? I'd suggest you'd happily rip the git's lungs out I know I would. Unfortunately we can't rely on our judicial system to provide an adequate punishment. Had he have successfully carried out the burglary and been caught he'd probably have got a slap on the wrist and suspended sentence, whoopy-do! Well he isn't going to taint anyone else's life now is he and I certainly won't lose any sleep over it.
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Re: Defending your home.

Unread post by George Hincapie »

savvypaul wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:51 pm
IF the burglar was murdered, not killed in self-defence, then murder is murder, regardless of who it is. I care about the law.
As the law stands, yes, you're right. In my view, Manslaughter would have been a more appropriate charge on the basis that murder requires mens rea; I doubt he had formed the necessary intent, but was simply protecting his home. Any competent Jury will take 5 secs to find him not guilty.

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Re: Defending your home.

Unread post by CN211276 »

I don't get it how some people in this country can have more sympathy for the perpetrators of crime than the victims. If someone breaks into someone's house they should have no rights. I don't think any action will be taken against the pensioner as the weight of public opinion is so strong.
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Re: Defending your home.

Unread post by savvypaul »

I'm withholding judgement because I don't know all the facts.

I trust the judicial process to come up with the right answer.
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Re: Defending your home.

Unread post by savvypaul »

CN211276 wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:09 pm I don't get it how some people in this country can have more sympathy for the perpetrators of crime than the victims. If someone breaks into someone's house they should have no rights. I don't think any action will be taken against the pensioner as the weight of public opinion is so strong.
Who has "more sympathy for the perpetrators of crime than the victims"?

Public opinion is not the law.
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