ATC v AVI v EV bake-off

Room to arrange and discuss bake-offs
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Re: ATC v AVI v EV bake-off

Unread post by _D_S_J_R_ »

I do know where you're coming from, but the EV's were designed to sound-support much larger spaces than a domestic living room and on a technical level, will have 'flaws' if used so close-to. The Doc and I discussed it at the time and I apologise for not being able to articulate my thoughts properly. You love them and probably, so would I, but there are compromises listening to them so close to I think but that extra 'rawness' is probably what makes you love them so.

The thing is now, AVI's can be heard and compared at a range of northern dealers, so any of you lot nearby to one can hear for yourselves if Ash was right all these years. Whether my pal near Saffron Walden will ever deal with them again is a moot point (he was stung on a warranty claim first time round) or even Signals here. The DM5 is being marketed at Sound Org in York as a desktop streaming player system for £1280 or so.. Maybe HFW or Stereophile can get hold of some for a proper third-party technical appraisal.

P.S.I may have shoehorned myself into being an apologist for old BBC-derived technology, but if the personal speaker-events to come in the summertime don't pan out, then it's JBL4412's or their decendents for me and have done with it!!!!!!!
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Re: ATC v AVI v EV bake-off

Unread post by Frasernash »

Lindsayt wrote:DSJR, the DM10's were marketed as better than every passive speaker ever made. The bake-off was done in a very average sized UK living room. When used with the Creek amp, the EV Sentry system cost me £600. The AVI system cost lpv 3 times that amount - c£1800. And the ATC system cost andrewjvt about £4500!

For sure, for most people the Sentries would be too big and too ugly. For people like me, looks and size are far less important than the sound quality for the money.


I don't see any reason why the DM10's should have been compared to Event Opals etc at that bake-off. If any owner of DM10's wishes to do that sort of bake-off they're quite welcome to go ahead and do it.

September's bake-off was an exercise in re-testing the AVI marketing claims (I'd already listened to previous model AVI actives and found them woefully short of the marketing hype) and in seeing what sort of sound quality is possible in an average room for how little money. It was also a test of cherry picked vintage speakers with SET and ultra cheapo solid state amplification and ultra cheapo CD player and cables vs a modern dealer demo type WAF passive system and modern WAF active speakers.
What was the out come did the Sentries smoke the others and were the ATC better than the AVI as the ATC are one of the few speakers that dont have crappy ports

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Re: ATC v AVI v EV bake-off

Unread post by Lindsayt »

DSJR, no speaker is perfect. The biggest sonic flaw of the Sentry III's is that they have average bass. Bass that was nevertheless better than ATC 11's and at least as good as the DM10's with sub.

Compared to the DM10's "rawness" is not an apt description of the EV's. A better description would be to say that the EV's have better detail resolution, better focus, better clarity, better recreation of the timbre of a grand piano, better delicacy on "delicate" instruments like triangles or mandolins or cymbals, that they have a more dynamic / unfettered / wide-open sound. The DM10's sound smooth. Over smooth. They smooth over everything. If you want a relaxing system, the equivalent of getting in a warm relaxing bath after a hard day at work then the DM10's will appeal. If you want something crisper, and more realistic sounding then the EV's are the speakers to go for.

The EV's do not sound how they look. They do not sound raw and brutish. They do not sound how you may expect. They sound nothing like the way Ashley James (who has never heard them) has described them on his forum.


I do not love my EV Sentry III's. They used to be my 3rd favourite speakers in my house. They're used for watching TV and blu rays. I re-evaluated them last year, and when used with my Korneff clone SET they're now my 2nd or joint 2nd favourite speakers. What they do represent is better sound quality for much less money than DM10's.


There is absolutly no "If" about whether Ash was right all these years. It's hyper bollocks to say that AVI actives sound better than every passive speaker ever made. What you will find is that the AVI's sound better than ATC 11's, which in turn sound better than speakers like B&W CM1's.

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Re: ATC v AVI v EV bake-off

Unread post by Lindsayt »

Frasernash, I tried to give an honest and accurate assessment of the results of the bake-off, including the size and the nature of the differences, spread over a few posts on this thread on the What Hi-fi forum: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/so- ... ake?page=4
Starting with post #67 and then #83 onwards.

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Re: ATC v AVI v EV bake-off

Unread post by Lindsayt »

https://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/qu ... ew-and-ipvThis bake-off has been raised again on the What Hi-fi forum.
Like someone scratching a scab over an old wound.

Bake-offs can be fascinating exercises in psychology.

Today we have lpv publishing a highly misleading statement about the sound of his AVI's plus sub vs the EV Sentry III's with Korneff clone and Creek CAS4040 at the bake-off.
:hbs:

This is revisionist :Bllocks: on what he said on the day and via email / PM in the 24 hours after the bake-off.


I know the strengths and weaknesses of the EV Sentry III's. lpv is describing a different speaker altogether in his comments today on the What Hi-fi forum. There's some interesting psychology going on here.

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Re: ATC v AVI v EV bake-off

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Blimey, we haven't taken the piss out of Avi for ages, in fact since the "ego almost as big as Marco's" stopped running the company.
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Re: ATC v AVI v EV bake-off

Unread post by Lindsayt »

Anyone who thinks that AVI speakers have a CRYSTAL CLEAR midrange :hbs: deserves to have the piss taken out of them:
https://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/fl ... gn-vs-sony

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Re: ATC v AVI v EV bake-off

Unread post by _D_S_J_R_ »

Lindsayt wrote: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:36 pm Anyone who thinks that AVI speakers have a CRYSTAL CLEAR midrange :hbs: deserves to have the piss taken out of them:
https://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/fl ... gn-vs-sony
Don't be too hard on these people - they haven't heard better. The new DM30's may well be a bit (I say *a bit*) nearer though, but they're still tiny boxes and won't have the 'presence' of a speaker like yours I reckon...
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Re: ATC v AVI v EV bake-off

Unread post by Lindsayt »

But he has heard better. He was in a 6 hour bake-off with his AVI's vs my EV Sentry's!
At the bake-off he gave the impression that he (grudgingly) accepted that the EV's were the better sounding speakers.
In the 24 hours after the bake-off he gave me the impression via PM's and emails that he thought that the EV's were the better sounding speakers.


And then as more and more time goes by he's finding more and more "faults" with the EV's and finding more and more good things about his fucking wank little AVI's.

This may or may not be coincidental with him having been a very active member of the (now gladly departed) AVI forum . As well as him going on in many posts on the What Hi-Fi forum about how great the AVI's were, prior to the bake-off.
And then there was the ridiculous thread on the AVI forum about the bake-off where the first page included about 30 factually incorrect statements, including 2 from lpv. The one with the extremely bad loser mentality from Ashley James. Again this might be just coincidence.
That thread also, later included a side discussion on lpv's AVI speakers having some veneer discolouration (veneereal disease?). Shortly after that lpv seemed to aquire a pair of £500 AVI speakers. Again this may be coincidental with his revisionist recollections and thoughts on the bake-off.


Revisionist in such a ridiculous way that today he said he went to a dealers for a demo of active KEF LS50's. At that demo he prefered the KEF's to his AVI's. And then he got the KEF's on a home demo where he says he prefered his AVI's. So he sent the KEF's back.
The implication here, being that if he got the EV Sentry's on a home demo he'd prefer the AVI's. Even though he's never had the EV's on a home demo (and never will). And even though the EV's are far better speakers than the KEF's.

It's all such a crock of shit!

And another example of why I think the psychology behind bake-offs is more interesting than the bloody hi-fi itself.

Some people are bad losers. Some people are good losers.

For example I have no problem in saying that my EV Sentry III's got their arses kicked for sound quality by Steve's red and black DIY speakers at the MCRU speaker bake-off a few months ago. It's only bloody hi-fi. Losing a bake-off is the equivalent to losing a round of golf.

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Re: ATC v AVI v EV bake-off

Unread post by Lindsayt »

what lpv has written here https://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/qu ... ew-and-ipv is as bad as what was written on the AVI forum bake-off thread. His words in italics.

I've stopped to form any opinions about audio components if I'm not familiar enough with the sound they produce.

The bake-off lasted over 6 hours. It was level matched. Same tracks played on each system. A wide variety of music was used. 2 different amplifiers and 2 different sources were used on the EV's. Incidentaly, I could hear the difference in the EV's when the amplifiers were changed, lpv has never made any comment on the different sound of each amplifier.

since the bake off I've moved from dm10s to dm12s..

After that bake-off, reading between the lines, I could tell that he was looking to move on from the DM10's. I would have been too if I'd been in his position. I wouldn't have moved onto another AVI speaker. There's the cliche about the definition of madness being to try the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

they are just right in my small front room and ev's would never work as good as in bigger Andrew's room when the bake off took place.


How does he know? He's never tried them in a smaller room. I've tried the EV's in smaller rooms than Andrew's, including a Wigwam bake-off where they comfortably sounded better than every other speaker there, including a horrible shouty little pair of American 2 ways. Sonically I'm confident they'd sound better than dm12's in lpv's room. They would, however LOOK "stupid" in such a room, but then they look "stupid" in every room.

horns produce lively sound.. whether you like it is another matter

It's more a case that his AVI's produce a shut-in sound.
Live music is a lively sound. When playing live recordings through a hi-fi (as we did during the bake-off) they should sound lively. The shut-in over smooth sound of the AVI's is a form of distortion. A noticeable one because it makes them boring and soporific to listen to. Anyone not prefering the lively sound of the EV's over the AVI's hasn't got a clue about hi-fi and is someone that nobody should take any notice of. There are a few of them about. Arkless being another example.

what I didn't like? ( again, don't forget it was short demo)

On what planet is a 6 hour volume matched bake-off a short demo?
I realised that the EV's were a markedly superior speaker within the first few seconds of the first track played on both speakers.

piercing mids and highs.. false impression of clarity?

False impression of clarity? No the AVI's were oversmooth and not as good at low level detail resolution. No false impression of clarity. They simply had better clarity than the AVI's.
piercing mids and highs? Yeah it's called dynamics. Something lacking in the oversmooth AVI's.
A few weeks after the bake-off I went to the ballet. There were plenty of times I had my "ears pierced". That's what music sounds like every time someone in the orchestra blows on his piccolo etc.
If he's claiming that the EV's were piercing because of their voicing or some distortion, he's talking a load of bollocks. They are not, for example, sibilant speakers.

it can be good with some electric guitar.. piano sounded good but it would with any bigger cabinet where violin sounds much better thru dm10 ( and especially thru new dm12) as these are smoother in the mids and highs yet preserve all the clarity..

Fantasy statement time again. The EV's sounded better on violins on the day. AVI's do not preserve all the clarity, as I've already mentioned.

violin was a pain from ev's and it's never a pain live as violin is a uber smooth instument even when played hard..


Violins can be smooth. They can also be quite stringent live.
The only pain at the bake-off from the EV's was that they were kicking the AVI's butt, track after track after track.
By the way, we played the classical tracks with the Creek amp only. This amp is somewhat crude in the midrange. I could turn around and say that for better violin reproduction - more natural and more low level detail resolution - use a good SET (which would bring the price up to DM10 level and below DM12 level)


while I could sort the piano by going for 2 subs I could not smoother ev's horns for satisfying violin reproduction.


Again mere fantasy speculation. He has never compared the EV's against AVI's with 2 subs. The oversmooth nature of the AVI's would still be there regardless of how many subs he used.

the sound of symphony orchestra was shouty too.

Bollocks. He's just made that up.

By the way, in all this he hasn't mentioned that the weakest area of the EV's is the bass. That could be because although it is the weakest area, it was still at least as good as the AVI's plus sub and noticeably better than the ATC 11's (without sub). And he doesn't have the experience to realise just how good bass could and should be.

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