Definition of a word

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scotty38
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Re: Definition of a word

Unread post by scotty38 »

Daniel Quinn wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:23 am You are a moron is exactly the same as you are male.
You're the lawyer so I'd hope you'd know the difference but imho the former is still open to interpretation whereas the latter (generally speaking and you know full well what I mean) isn't.

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Re: Definition of a word

Unread post by joe »

Daniel Quinn wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:23 am The point is calling someone a moron if true can not be ad adhomien. (*if the term is used in the psychological sense)

Truth necessarily trumps ad hom

You are a moron is exactly the same as you are male.
How would you know whether someone was 'technically' a moron without testing their IQ?

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Re: Definition of a word

Unread post by Daniel Quinn »

It isn't it as very specific definition. (somebody with a iq below 85)

It usage may have been bastardise, but that deosnt alter the fact.

As for knowing in this instance I know.

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Re: Definition of a word

Unread post by savvypaul »

I'm letting the thread run, as an interesting and informative debate about what constitutes 'ad hominem'.

If I get any sense that the thread is being used as a back door for a personal attack on any member here, the thread will have to be locked / removed.
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joe
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Re: Definition of a word

Unread post by joe »

Daniel Quinn wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:39 am It isn't it as very specific definition. (somebody with a iq below 85)

It usage may have been bastardise, but that deosnt alter the fact.

As for knowing in this instance I know.
You have access to this person's IQ test results?

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Re: Definition of a word

Unread post by Lurcher300b »

joe wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:24 am
Daniel Quinn wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:39 am It isn't it as very specific definition. (somebody with a iq below 85)

It usage may have been bastardise, but that deosnt alter the fact.

As for knowing in this instance I know.
You have access to this person's IQ test results?
It doesn't matter, as DQ said
You are a moron is exactly the same as you are male.
Well, its not exactly the same, but its functionally equivalent. But I disagree that a true statement can not be used as part of ad hominem.

"Your assertion that 1 + 1 = 2 is not true because you are male", is still ad hominem.

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Re: Definition of a word

Unread post by joe »

Lurcher300b wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:24 am
joe wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:24 am
Daniel Quinn wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:39 am It isn't it as very specific definition. (somebody with a iq below 85)

It usage may have been bastardise, but that deosnt alter the fact.

As for knowing in this instance I know.
You have access to this person's IQ test results?
It doesn't matter, as DQ said

Well, yes it does, in fact it's fundamental. If calling someone a 'moron' is not ad hominem if that person actually is, technically speaking, a moron (ie he or she has an IQ below a certain level), then you have to able to demonstrate that you know, for a fact, that their IQ is below that level. Otherwise the word 'moron' is just a catch-all term of abuse. The same goes for 'idiot', 'imbecile' and similar terms that have both a vulgar abuse meaning and a technical (albeit obsolescent) meaning.

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Re: Definition of a word

Unread post by Lurcher300b »

joe wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:38 am
Lurcher300b wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:24 am
joe wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:24 am

You have access to this person's IQ test results?
It doesn't matter, as DQ said

Well, yes it does, in fact it's fundamental. If calling someone a 'moron' is not ad hominem if that person actually is, technically speaking, a moron (ie he or she has an IQ below a certain level), then you have to able to demonstrate that you know, for a fact, that their IQ is below that level. Otherwise the word 'moron' is just a catch-all term of abuse. The same goes for 'idiot', 'imbecile' and similar terms that have both a vulgar abuse meaning and a technical (albeit obsolescent) meaning.
But only if the fact that they may or may not be a moron (or male) has any direct impact on the logical assertion that they are arguing. In the example I gave the assertion is 1+1=2, the sex of someone making that argument has no bearing on the mathematics, so suggesting that the assertion is wrong because they are male is not ad hominem, it is just a non argument. Now if you regard being male as disparaging, then the statement becomes a insult, but because it clearly has no bearing on the substance of the assertion it does not then become ad hominem it remains an insult.

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Re: Definition of a word

Unread post by scotty38 »

Someone on this thread is a moron and I know that for a fact but I am not prepared to share those facts.

How does that sit?

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Re: Definition of a word

Unread post by Lurcher300b »

scotty38 wrote: Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:57 am Someone on this thread is a moron and I know that for a fact but I am not prepared to share those facts.

How does that sit?
Well, that is just an assertion. It could be a insult, and it could be libel.

I was just about to say that I think we may be in danger of conflating the legal definition of libel where the truth of a statement matters with the logical definition of argument by ad hominem where I do not believe it does.

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