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Classicrock wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:37 pm Marketing and politicians have a lot in common. An inability to grasp technical matters or any logical thinking. Also like the sound of their own voice. Plenty examples of the later trait now populate Youtube. Applying any form of logic would lead to HS2 being binned and establishing some common solution to Brexit that the EU were likely to go along with. The prime numpty at present who displays all the hallmarks of 'Nice But Dim' is the current transport minister. Latest in a succession of bungling idiots who have presided over disasters running from the demise of Rover cars to controlling migration by chucking out the wrong people. I firmly believe a reliance on clueless civil servants (Sir Humphrey types) has a lot to do with this.

I don’t know about ‘nice’. You can’t be too horrid in politics these days, ‘dim’ well I would struggle to find anyone in the present cabinet that I could describe as intelligent. I suppose a lot depends on how you define intelligence. Self serving short sightedness wouldn’t be in my definition.

I think politics has changed since I started voting and not for the better. It wasn’t all that clever before,but I felt even if I didn’t agree with the politics of an MP I thought many were at least driven in part by ideological conviction.
This business with Brexit was from my limited understand driven by a desire to keep the Tory party from ripping itself apart and becoming unelectable; not a lot to do with the long term betterment of the UK. Even Cameron didn’t believe it was going to be a ‘good thing’ for the UK.
T may was badly advised when she activated article 50. She could have found another way to appease the rabid right wing.

Welder wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:05 pm

Classicrock wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:37 pm Marketing and politicians have a lot in common. An inability to grasp technical matters or any logical thinking. Also like the sound of their own voice. Plenty examples of the later trait now populate Youtube. Applying any form of logic would lead to HS2 being binned and establishing some common solution to Brexit that the EU were likely to go along with. The prime numpty at present who displays all the hallmarks of 'Nice But Dim' is the current transport minister. Latest in a succession of bungling idiots who have presided over disasters running from the demise of Rover cars to controlling migration by chucking out the wrong people. I firmly believe a reliance on clueless civil servants (Sir Humphrey types) has a lot to do with this.

I don’t know about ‘nice’. You can’t be too horrid in politics these days, ‘dim’ well I would struggle to find anyone in the present cabinet that I could describe as intelligent. I suppose a lot depends on how you define intelligence. Self serving short sightedness wouldn’t be in my definition.

I think politics has changed since I started voting and not for the better. It wasn’t all that clever before,but I felt even if I didn’t agree with the politics of an MP I thought many were at least driven in part by ideological conviction.
This business with Brexit was from my limited understand driven by a desire to keep the Tory party from ripping itself apart and becoming unelectable; not a lot to do with the long term betterment of the UK. Even Cameron didn’t believe it was going to be a ‘good thing’ for the UK.
T may was badly advised when she activated article 50. She could have found another way to appease the rabid right wing.

You miss the point. May was obliged to enact the result of the referendum. The biggest danger is if the wishes of a majority isn't enacted upon. Parliament handed the decision to the electorate and got their answer. This is not just about the right wing of the Tory party. At least half the population dislike the EU and more have reservations.

Welder wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:05 pm

Classicrock wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:37 pm Marketing and politicians have a lot in common. An inability to grasp technical matters or any logical thinking. Also like the sound of their own voice. Plenty examples of the later trait now populate Youtube. Applying any form of logic would lead to HS2 being binned and establishing some common solution to Brexit that the EU were likely to go along with. The prime numpty at present who displays all the hallmarks of 'Nice But Dim' is the current transport minister. Latest in a succession of bungling idiots who have presided over disasters running from the demise of Rover cars to controlling migration by chucking out the wrong people. I firmly believe a reliance on clueless civil servants (Sir Humphrey types) has a lot to do with this.

I don’t know about ‘nice’. You can’t be too horrid in politics these days, ‘dim’ well I would struggle to find anyone in the present cabinet that I could describe as intelligent. I suppose a lot depends on how you define intelligence. Self serving short sightedness wouldn’t be in my definition.

I think politics has changed since I started voting and not for the better. It wasn’t all that clever before,but I felt even if I didn’t agree with the politics of an MP I thought many were at least driven in part by ideological conviction.
This business with Brexit was from my limited understand driven by a desire to keep the Tory party from ripping itself apart and becoming unelectable; not a lot to do with the long term betterment of the UK. Even Cameron didn’t believe it was going to be a ‘good thing’ for the UK.
T may was badly advised when she activated article 50. She could have found another way to appease the rabid right wing.

We have the worst lot of politicians ever. The PM is the reincarnation of the captain of the Titanic and the leader of the opposition should be exhibited in a museum.

Whoever had the job of Prime Minister during the Brexit transition had an impossible mission.

For example, how do you come up with a satisfactory solution for the Irish botder issue?
I can't think of one.

Classicrock wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:48 pm

Welder wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:05 pm

Classicrock wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:37 pm Marketing and politicians have a lot in common. An inability to grasp technical matters or any logical thinking. Also like the sound of their own voice. Plenty examples of the later trait now populate Youtube. Applying any form of logic would lead to HS2 being binned and establishing some common solution to Brexit that the EU were likely to go along with. The prime numpty at present who displays all the hallmarks of 'Nice But Dim' is the current transport minister. Latest in a succession of bungling idiots who have presided over disasters running from the demise of Rover cars to controlling migration by chucking out the wrong people. I firmly believe a reliance on clueless civil servants (Sir Humphrey types) has a lot to do with this.

I don’t know about ‘nice’. You can’t be too horrid in politics these days, ‘dim’ well I would struggle to find anyone in the present cabinet that I could describe as intelligent. I suppose a lot depends on how you define intelligence. Self serving short sightedness wouldn’t be in my definition.

I think politics has changed since I started voting and not for the better. It wasn’t all that clever before,but I felt even if I didn’t agree with the politics of an MP I thought many were at least driven in part by ideological conviction.
This business with Brexit was from my limited understand driven by a desire to keep the Tory party from ripping itself apart and becoming unelectable; not a lot to do with the long term betterment of the UK. Even Cameron didn’t believe it was going to be a ‘good thing’ for the UK.
T may was badly advised when she activated article 50. She could have found another way to appease the rabid right wing.

You miss the point. May was obliged to enact the result of the referendum. The biggest danger is if the wishes of a majority isn't enacted upon. Parliament handed the decision to the electorate and got their answer. This is not just about the right wing of the Tory party. At least half the population dislike the EU and more have reservations.

Make I larf! Since when did keeping their promises and carrying out the will of the electorate become the primary concern of the politicians. Of course T May had other options. This was a referendum, not even an election. She/they were under no obligation to enact article 50. It’s not as if there was a massive majority in favor of leaving the EU and if the polls are to be believed a new referendum is likely to produce a swing against leaving.
I think I’ve adequately grasped the point.

The politicians are so inept, only considering their careers, a people's vote, now we all know what we are voting for, is the only solution. I see a remain win by a margin of around 65% to 35%. Many of those who previously voted brexit won't do so any more and the new young voters, who will be worst affected, will vote remain. I am feeling embarrassed to be British in a multi national Malta with all this nonsense going on at home. Not to mention feeling it in the pocket because of the state of the Pound. We are a laughing stock.

Welder wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:43 am

Classicrock wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:48 pm

Welder wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:05 pm
I don’t know about ‘nice’. You can’t be too horrid in politics these days, ‘dim’ well I would struggle to find anyone in the present cabinet that I could describe as intelligent. I suppose a lot depends on how you define intelligence. Self serving short sightedness wouldn’t be in my definition.

I think politics has changed since I started voting and not for the better. It wasn’t all that clever before,but I felt even if I didn’t agree with the politics of an MP I thought many were at least driven in part by ideological conviction.
This business with Brexit was from my limited understand driven by a desire to keep the Tory party from ripping itself apart and becoming unelectable; not a lot to do with the long term betterment of the UK. Even Cameron didn’t believe it was going to be a ‘good thing’ for the UK.
T may was badly advised when she activated article 50. She could have found another way to appease the rabid right wing.

You miss the point. May was obliged to enact the result of the referendum. The biggest danger is if the wishes of a majority isn't enacted upon. Parliament handed the decision to the electorate and got their answer. This is not just about the right wing of the Tory party. At least half the population dislike the EU and more have reservations.

Make I larf! Since when did keeping their promises and carrying out the will of the electorate become the primary concern of the politicians. Of course T May had other options. This was a referendum, not even an election. She/they were under no obligation to enact article 50. It’s not as if there was a massive majority in favor of leaving the EU and if the polls are to be believed a new referendum is likely to produce a swing against leaving.
I think I’ve adequately grasped the point.

You are exhibiting the exact flawed logic typical of extreme remoaners. Since when did we have an election when the losing party got power because they only lost by a small amount?

I think we should leave because that question was answered by the referendum question. I think it was the wrong decision, overall, but I think that it has to be followed through.

'How' we leave, and the exact nature of our ongoing relationship with the EU, are different questions and must be debated, and decided, in Parliament.

No deal is unacceptable because of the disruption and hardships it would cause, even if only short-term. I don't believe that May will sanction no-deal.

If the 'hard' Brexiteers are unable to make sensible compromises to deliver an achievable and balanced Brexit, then I would favour cancelling Article 50 without referring to a 2nd referendum.

May's deal looks about right, to me, as compromises go. The backstop is as much about our red lines as it is about the Eu's.

"Since when did we have an election when the losing party got power because they only lost by a small amount?"

When the mandate has been lost due to time or changing circumstances i.e. between 1974 and 2016 on the EU, and again now as there are even bigger changes to the question. A Gov only gets 4 years before it has to go again to the country, in this case REALITY makes it 2 years. There are two choices, new vote or general election.

We vote to make a Gov of OUR representatives to make decisions for us, we are not a country of referendums like some are. The only reason we had one is for the very same reasons we have to have one again.

Classicrock wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:57 am

Welder wrote: ↑Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:43 am

Classicrock wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:48 pm

You miss the point. May was obliged to enact the result of the referendum. The biggest danger is if the wishes of a majority isn't enacted upon. Parliament handed the decision to the electorate and got their answer. This is not just about the right wing of the Tory party. At least half the population dislike the EU and more have reservations.

Make I larf! Since when did keeping their promises and carrying out the will of the electorate become the primary concern of the politicians. Of course T May had other options. This was a referendum, not even an election. She/they were under no obligation to enact article 50. It’s not as if there was a massive majority in favor of leaving the EU and if the polls are to be believed a new referendum is likely to produce a swing against leaving.
I think I’ve adequately grasped the point.

You are exhibiting the exact flawed logic typical of extreme remoaners. Since when did we have an election when the losing party got power because they only lost by a small amount?

I don’t think there is a flaw in my logic. Attempting to belittle ones opponents by casting doubt as to their grasp of the subject is a very poor debate strategy.


Inevitably there are some dissenters (often back bencher’s) who will not follow the party line. In such case the majority party needs a proportion of the oppositions members to vote with them to ensure a bill gets passed. This in effect gives the minority party the power.
There is also the situation where there is a hung parliament in which case it is entire possible for a very small non aligned minority to have decisive power. The power that the DUP have in the present situation is a reasonable example.

I don’t think I’ve expressed any radical preference for remaining, or leaving. I wasn’t in the UK at the time of the referendum.
I am pro EU but the EU will hopefully continue with or without the UK.
It is also true I’m not a fan of the xenophobic attitude of many of the voters who voted to leave the EU.
I don’t think these views make me an ‘extreem remoaner’.
If I have extreme views on anything so far mentioned in this thread it is the caliber of the politicians we have and the ignorance and gullibility of the British voter.
My views are just different to your views.