Unions - power slurping arses!!!

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Sorry you are fecking bonkers. A fecking driver wont do anything but sit in his cab he is useless in the train, that is why a train manager is on duty, but he wants to be called a guard, which is a function and safety need that goes back to Victorian steam trains, it does not exist anymore. Protecting the rear of the train with detonators, FFS they have radios and phones !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Operate the hand brake on the whistle instruction of the driver :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: keeping a watch down the train length to see if it separates :lol: :lol: :lol: Guards had legal functions written into railway law to the point that if one was left on the platform by accident the train had to be halted by signals at a station and wait for the guard to catch up on a local train. Call him a train manager and they can carry on to the next sign on point and pick one up there. I would stop while you are not fecking miles behind in reality, it is my interest and hobby going back to being a trainspotter and training on the Main Line steam Trust at Loughboro' in the 70's up to passed fireman level. You are talking to someone who knows the subject back to front.

Do you realise in law if a driver leaves a station without being given "right away" he could be fired. Who's responsibility was "right away" - the guard. Now a days on main stations you will see a sign that illuminates by the driver on the platform that says RA = right away, it is now operated by the platform staff. There is NO additional risk in anyway to one man working or even no man working under a full computer control system, it is luddites trying to protect their jobs AND THE POWER OF THEIR UNION!!

We had this discussion months ago and you were shot down in flames. You seem to still think the unions aren't lying to you, but the management are, reverse that for the truth.

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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

"Operational capacity is determined by the infrastructure - number of tracks, track speed, power supply, signalling, number of platforms, platform lengths etc -maintained (and upgraded when funds are released) by Network Rail, which is owned by the government. DOO does not increase capacity. The attractions of DOO, to the government, are saving money and crippling the power of the RMT union. The government wants to introduce DOO almost everywhere, so it is digging it's heels in at Southern. The unions knows this and, so far, with the support of it's members has been able to dig it's own heels in to force a stalemate."

Again completely wrong. The company owns Southeastern as well as Southern and YET AGAIN I EXPLAINED THIS MONTHS AGO!!!! Southeastern non express services work one man driver only, they have done since 1992, with historically NO ADDITIONAL SAFETY PROBLEMS. I talk to the drivers, and sometimes cadge a lift in the cab when they know my interest and training. All Southern want to do is the same, main line with train manager as at Southeastern (no guards there), and local trains one man. On local services it is a couple of minutes between stations there is no need for anything else. Main line needs a train manager and no one is denying this. On Southern local services you have an eeeediot siting in his own comfy little compartment and doing nothing but press a bell to the driver when all the doors have closed, and paid a relative bloody fortune for it. FOR DOING NOTHING as I explained in the last post, his job doesn't exist anymore. The drivers on Southeastern find it all hilarious, the unions have tried to get them to strike so as to go back to using guards, they told the union to piss off, do you wonder why, THEY PREFER IT.

In the early 90's there were lots of deals set up around the country for one man operation on local services, too late the unions realised it was losing members and power AND THAT IS ALL THIS IS ABOUT everything else is bullshit.

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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by Bigman80 »

DOO can't be introduced on the WCML due to the infrastructure. The infrastructure can't be upgraded due to the cost to Network Rail and the DFT won't pay for it. VT have had trains that can do 140mph but they aren't allowed because the need and cost to move every signal further apart is ridiculously expensive. Then, you would also need incab signalling to correctly monitor the signals. This was trialed and accepted by ASLEF (Drivers union) but again,e rejected due to cost. They had the chance to do this with HS2 but again declined due to cost. The Unions aren't solely to blame for the lack of modernisation in signalling, fleet and operations. There has been a pandemic of short funding and short franchise tenure which has deterred investment from Train operating companies.

The RA isn't activated by the driver, it's activated by the station staff to indicate that "All station work is complete and the train can depart" The driver cannot give himself the RA. Its impossible and in direct contradiction of the Rule book. The RA activation is located on the platform.

The RMT don't want DOO and do fight to keep outdated safety requirements like train protection (detonators, Track circuit clips etc) and more power to them. I was once a guard and then a Train Manager. Been a union member for 23 years. The motives are political at times, can't argue with that.

There's no way you can run a Train at 125mph + at a platforms length part safely. A Pendolino running at 125mph takes 1 and 1/4 miles to come to an emergency stop. There's no way a driver can react quickly enough to not crash into another train performing an emergency stop.

Been in operations control for a few years on the railway managing a fleet of 100+ rolling stock. Not a security guard 😉

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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

FFS do you read what I have written, please do so before you spout.

ME
"Do you realise in law if a driver leaves a station without being given "right away" he could be fired. Who's responsibility was "right away" - the guard. Now a days on main stations you will see a sign that illuminates by the driver on the platform that says RA = right away, it is now operated by the platform staff"

Also what is this bollocks of moving signal apart for HST. HST has no signals, it is in cab signalling, done by induced signal from a line between the rails or by radio signal both controlled by computer. The latest version in use (but even more automatic ones on the way) set the speed and braking all the driver does is start and stop, and is ready to take over in an emergency or failure

video with the driver display.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytAKrltE5iE

This is a German system being used in Taiwan.

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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by savvypaul »

Doc,

Of course I know that DOO exists elsewhere - given that you know I worked in senior positions on the railway for many years, I am greatly amused that you believe you are 'revealing' this to me :lol: . I also well know the contractual model that Southern runs to. I was involved in writing franchise bids. I have a basic understanding of the principles of rail operation - HR and Station Management were my specialist roles. Yes, I know about Right Away and the principles around it. I also understand the history of the guard role and the background and original ideas behind the first implementation of DOO on the 'bedpan' line.

You extrapolate the method of operation at South Eastern, to Southern, on the basis of logic, which is fine...but it is not logic that will solve the dispute.

Read what I have said...I am not advocating that the status quo be maintained. I am advocating that the implementation of DOO should not be all about saving money and crushing a union. For example, there were more than 500 sex assaults reported on south-east rail services in the last three years, including 16 reports of rape. Do you think that number would go up or down if we take staff off trains? Opening and closing the doors is not the only safety issue to consider. There is an opportunity for redeployment, if it is managed with skill and empathy.

Of course we should pursue technological advances. Where our views then seem to diverge is that I believe that a union cannot be expected to roll over just because it is presented with the government's version of truth and logic. Like it or lump it, disputes are never that simple. The union has it's own version of truth and logic. Both cherish their own views for perfectly understandable reasons. To think otherwise, in my experience, is naive and futile.

The union currently has some power over this issue and if the government wants them to give that up without further disruption then they have to find a way to do a deal. To do a deal the government will have to accept that the union must protect it's power to some extent and the union will have to accept that the government needs to oversee an acceptable service at an acceptable cost. To say that the dispute is all down to one party is incorrect.

Shot down in flames? Fecking bonkers? Not me, mate.
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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

There are NO extra occuracies of rape or theft on Southeastern as opposed to Southern DOO has NOTHING to do with it.

So why do the Southeastern driver laugh at the nonsense on Southern, same unions, and I have heard them to a man calling the dispute daft.

You have a left leaning that is all this is about. The facts are undeniable, the unions are luddites they are holding up progress, which is damaging to their customers - us, yet they lie about it to create sympathy - they deserve none. They should just back off, stop the stupidity and allow the future to happen, and the driver should talk to their SE counterparts which I am sure they do. The guards well no turkey ever votes for Christmas. But Southern have guaranteed their jobs and no pay cut, so no loss to them. BUT no guarantee for future staff, so this all about union power and union member numbers and dues, and we have to suffer because of it.

i.e. your left wing propaganda is shot down in flames.

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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Anyway I live in the middle of this dispute, you don't, if you did you might be as pissed off as I am with it.

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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by savvypaul »

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:22 pm There are NO extra occuracies of rape or theft on Southeastern as opposed to Southern DOO has NOTHING to do with it.
You can't know that. Nobody does.

My question expressed an opinion that most people can find reason in. The redeployment of staff is a proposal that keeps a 2nd member of staff on trains (maybe not all trains but certainly a significant number) allowing the union to say that it is protecting it's members jobs and fighting for public safety and allowing the government to say that it is listening and proactive about safety. Others could be redeployed on stations and some might take advantage of a generous voluntary redundancy scheme that the government could fund.

The government cannot agree to the 2nd person being safety critical but there are other safeguards that can be put in place, such as minimum levels of coverage over certain periods and a cap on the number of vacancies that the company can run with. You can also try to replace 'dispute power' with 'positive power' - a partnership agreement including guaranteed rep involvement in the running of the operation and a commitment to share the benefits.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:22 pm So why do the Southeastern driver laugh at the nonsense on Southern, same unions, and I have heard them to a man calling the dispute daft.
For every South Eastern driver who says the dispute is nonsense, I can bring you a Southern guard who says the dispute is necessary.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:22 pm You have a left leaning that is all this is about.
If I am left leaning, it implies that you are right leaning. I don't think that either label does justice to either of us.
Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:33 pm Anyway I live in the middle of this dispute, you don't, if you did you might be as pissed off as I am with it.
Of course I would be exceptionally pissed off. That is completely understandable. Negotiation and dispute resolution was part of what I used to do. I am not trying to be awkward or ideological.
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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Savvy I completely disagree with everything you have said in the last post much of which to my mind is complete nonsense or they would say that wouldn't they. If we pursue this we will likely fall out as I feel so strongly about this, so for once I will agree to differ for the sake of the forum, but my mind on the matter hasn't changed one inch.

Now back to the original post, if you wish to see what we are in for if via Corbyn the rail unions get power then watch France (poor sods) over the next few weeks.

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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by savvypaul »

Doc,

I respect that you feel strongly about this issue.

Yes, I agree to differ.
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