Unions - power slurping arses!!!

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savvypaul
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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by savvypaul »

The price of imposing redundancies and worsening of terms and conditions is disputes. Like it or lump it...

...or find a balance that shares the benefits of 'progress' and all parties can sign up to.

As always in these things, both sides are a little bit wrong and a little bit right.

Instead of a thread title that reads: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

How about:

Modernisation creates challenges for both Government and Unions.

?
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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Not for me, the Unions are the major problem in all this, look at France today, that is what prompted it. If I have to listen to another illiterate railway union knob head who can't even speak properly calling us all brother, I may join the Conservative Party out of spite.

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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by savvypaul »

OK, comrade... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't you just mean that the unions are the ones who wind you up most?

BTW, the only good reason to join the Conservative party is 'spite'.
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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by Ithilstone »

The best railway system in the world - Japan.

Semi automatic trains, the fastest in the world, the best time keeping ones as well. Most technologically advanced ones.

Still have a driver and there is more people working per train than almost anywhere else in the world ( on train and on platforms)
And far from being most expensive ones - per journey wise

They know that trains are not dangerous to people but that people are dangerous to themselves around the trains...

So there is no need to reduce number of people working "on trains" we probably need more but they need to be retrain

Btw DLR might me driverless for 80% of the time but there is always a well paid train captin on board - and it seems to be working fine.
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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by savvypaul »

Ithilstone wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:51 pm The best railway system in the world - Japan.

Semi automatic trains, the fastest in the world, the best time keeping ones as well. Most technologically advanced ones.

Still have a driver and there is more people working per train than almost anywhere else in the world ( on train and on platforms)
And far from being most expensive ones - per journey wise

They know that trains are not dangerous to people but that people are dangerous to themselves around the trains...

So there is no need to reduce number of people working "on trains" we probably need more but they need to be retrain

Btw DLR might me driverless for 80% of the time but there is always a well paid train captin on board - and it seems to be working fine.
They are being progressive, and balanced, about technological progress. Unions will have no problem with what you have described, assuming that the transition (changes to roles and responsibilities) is handled sympathetically.
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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by Classicrock »

Savvy if you were a customer of Southern Rail you would have a different view of Union power.
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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by savvypaul »

Classicrock wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:04 pm Savvy if you were a customer of Southern Rail you would have a different view of Union power.
Delays and cancellations would drive me mad, but the facts of the dispute would still be the same.

Withdrawal of labour is the only option left when the government wants only to save money, ignore safety concerns and crush a union.

The employer (rail operator), btw, is stuck in the middle. The government determines the service level that the operator provides.

If our government wanted to follow the progressive example of Japan, it could do so - and if we enjoyed better customer service and safety as well as the technology wins, you might have a different view of both unions and rail companies (and, maybe, even the government).
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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Sorry your a mate but this is just shite and lies and left wing propaganda. 1/ There is no safety issue. 2/ the rail operator is the leader in this and they are a majority owned German company so they know about this as you say, yet even they can't get any sense into these Union arses, the Gov is just providing moral backing. 3/ the Government has nothing to do with the service who the feck told you that. The company knows how many trains it can run at peak (the only important bit) and has to staff them. They run at MAX capacity unless the unions and their bolshie employees stop them.

It is Network Rail who dictate the level of service, dictated by the track capacity, the signalling, AND the available level of current if electrified that is available. Overload and it trips out, all trains stop.

I am sorry but this whole dispute is full of bullshit and lies by the unions, and equally ignorant people believe them.

EDIT - in actuality there is voltage drop long before trip. On the Southern two trains on both up and down in a section of current supply and accelerating and you will get up to 100v drop, 750vdc down to 650 or less.

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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by Ithilstone »

Nothing to see here...
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Re: Unions - power slurping arses!!!

Unread post by savvypaul »

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:37 pm Sorry your a mate but this is just shite and lies and left wing propaganda. 1/ There is no safety issue. 2/ the rail operator is the leader in this and they are a majority owned German company so they know about this as you say, yet even they can't get any sense into these Union arses, the Gov is just providing moral backing. 3/ the Government has nothing to do with the service who the feck told you that. The company knows how many trains it can run at peak (the only important bit) and has to staff them. They run at MAX capacity unless the unions and their bolshie employees stop them.

It is Network Rail who dictate the level of service, dictated by the track capacity, the signalling, AND the available level of current if electrified that is available. Overload and it trips out, all trains stop.

I am sorry but this whole dispute is full of bullshit and lies by the unions, and equally ignorant people believe them.

EDIT - in actuality there is voltage drop long before trip. On the Southern two trains on both up and down in a section of current supply and accelerating and you will get up to 100v drop, 750vdc down to 650 or less.
1. Driver Only Operation (DOO) can be safe for opening and closing of doors. But there are other concerns. Are passenger security, information , service, assistance with special needs etc important? If yes, it is certainly better to have 2 members of staff on board.

2&3. The Southern franchise model is essentially a fixed payment for providing a service. The payment due is contractually reviewed at regular intervals. The government can choose to keep paying to have 2 members of staff on board, if it wishes. Btw, not all of the unplanned delays / cancellations on Southern are due to industrial action. The merger and restructuring of Southern with Thameslink and Great Northern, by the government, has also impacted negatively: https://www.nao.org.uk/report/the-thame ... franchise/

Operational capacity is determined by the infrastructure - number of tracks, track speed, power supply, signalling, number of platforms, platform lengths etc -maintained (and upgraded when funds are released) by Network Rail, which is owned by the government. DOO does not increase capacity. The attractions of DOO, to the government, are saving money and crippling the power of the RMT union. The government wants to introduce DOO almost everywhere, so it is digging it's heels in at Southern. The unions knows this and, so far, with the support of it's members has been able to dig it's own heels in to force a stalemate.

The union is not lying about safety - 2 people is safer - but whether you think the cost is justified is another question. The other important question is 'should a 2nd member of staff be 'safety critical'? The government sees the union insistence on safety critical purely about preserving union power (which it partly is - a train could not run without both members of staff) while the union sees the government and company insistence on them not being safety critical as a way for the government to go back on any commitment later, worsen terms and conditions in future, and as a way for the company to run with high levels of vacancies for the '2nd person' role. There is mistrust on both sides.

I worked on the railway for 21 years, many of those in senior management. I stay in touch with senior managers and directors within the industry. I don't believe that any side (remembering that there are 3 sides involved) is wholly to blame or wholly blameless.
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