Who is to blame for NHS crisis?

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savvypaul
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Who is to blame for NHS crisis?

Unread post by savvypaul » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:32 pm

Alfi wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:28 pm
Apparently it is all down to us getting older, but the media never mention the elephants in the room - uncontrolled immigration and health tourism.

I'm bound to be called racist for mentioning this, but there you go I have!

Alfi.
guydarryl wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:33 pm
Sounds like an awful situation Doc - hope that it's nothing too bad.

Recent experiences with my mum are very different to yours Doc, seems that different areas are getting very different service compared to here in Suffolk (population density/demographics perhaps?)

Mum has a history of low platelet counts so when I noticed bruising starting again, I phoned GP and was given appointment same day. Doctor referred to NHS unit for blood test Friday afternoon (same day). Seen and bloods taken within five minutes of arrival!
Ipswich hospital phoned back next day (7.30 in morning on Saturday)) as results were worrying, 111 sent higher level nurse to check mum over on Saturday afternoon. GP phoned after hours on Saturday to ask if all was well and to suggest follow up blood tests once medication had been in use for three days. Appointment booked and second set of blood samples taken yesterday, now waiting for result (all quiet so far, so assume medication is working).

Very impressed with speed and care of all concerned.
CN211276 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:14 pm
The situation is good with our surgery. My wife had a really bad chest infection at the start of the year not long before we were flying to Malta. She phoned the surgery and got an appointment on the day. The GP prescribed antibiotics which cleared the infection and our month away went ahead as planned. Things seem to be bad in the London area and I think inefficiency at the top is a big factor. Cardiff is the fastest growing city in the UK but the NHS seems to be on top of things.
Classicrock wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:31 pm
Alfi wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:28 pm
Apparently it is all down to us getting older, but the media never mention the elephants in the room - uncontrolled immigration and health tourism.

I'm bound to be called racist for mentioning this, but there you go I have!

Alfi.
Funny just having the same conversation with one of the builders this morning. Yep brexit voters who don't want immigration are racist. Note the Brexiteers in the govt are dodging this issue. As far as doc is concerned check if any of the local hospitals have a minor injuries unit. That is not A and E and they will have to treat. All this nonsense is down to individual trusts. Not truly a 'national' health service is it? BTW there are no actual cuts in A&E just bad organisation and an inadequate training and recruitment policy by the govt.
savvypaul wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:55 pm
Alfi wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:28 pm
Apparently it is all down to us getting older, but the media never mention the elephants in the room - uncontrolled immigration and health tourism.

I'm bound to be called racist for mentioning this, but there you go I have!

Alfi.
Not racist, just innaccurate.

All available evidence suggests that immigration is a net contributor to the economy, including the cost of the NHS. Most immigrants are working age, and the vast bulk are aged 20-30. They pay taxes and NI but are much less likely to use the NHS.

Health tourism accounts for 0.3% of NHS costs.

The issue is that funding increases have not kept pace with growing and ageing population (and that is an issue across the whole of Europe). The decision to slow down NHS funding is a political decision, just like the decision to dramatically cut corporate tax rates since 2011.

Pointing towards "uncontrolled immigration and health tourism" as the "elephants in the room" is equivalent to complaining about a broken toenail when your kneecap has been shattered...
Hemmo1969 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:28 pm
savvypaul wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:55 pm
Alfi wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:28 pm
Apparently it is all down to us getting older, but the media never mention the elephants in the room - uncontrolled immigration and health tourism.

I'm bound to be called racist for mentioning this, but there you go I have!

Alfi.
Not racist, just innaccurate.

All available evidence suggests that immigration is a net contributor to the economy, including the cost of the NHS. Most immigrants are working age, and the vast bulk are aged 20-30. They pay taxes and NI but are much less likely to use the NHS.

Health tourism accounts for 0.3% of NHS costs.

The issue is that funding increases have not kept pace with growing and ageing population (and that is an issue across the whole of Europe). The decision to slow down NHS funding is a political decision, just like the decision to dramatically cut corporate tax rates since 2011.

Pointing towards "uncontrolled immigration and health tourism" as the "elephants in the room" is equivalent to complaining about a broken toenail when your kneecap has been shattered...
Alfi, Choosing to pose an opinion like you do then yes I would (at first thought) think racist......

The figures should speak for themselves... (if anyone would care to do 5 mins of research)

UK ageing population (18% being 65 and over - Office of National Statistics) is 11,880,000
UK Net migration in July 2017 was 230,000

And you still think it's the 'Elephant in the room' causing the problems with the NHS ??
Classicrock wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:18 pm
Immigrants on minimum wage pay little to no tax and are entitled to tax credits / universal benefit. Logic suggests they are a drain on public resources which they are entitled to use without paying much towards them. They benefit companies that want cheap labour not the exchequer. This is linked to drop in productivity as companies aren't concentrating on focusing on more productive workers and tighter control on staffing levels. Don't know if health tourism is significant but EU migrants having children and using the health service put a strain on resources to which they are not net contributors. Of course there are other factors such as the balls up in social care and people attending A&E for trivial reasons. Likely why Doc has been warned off. If he turns up at hospital medical profession are morally and ethically obliged to treat him. What some bureaucrat has told him is just to scare him off and won't count for much in practice.
Alfi wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:42 pm
savvypaul wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:55 pm

Not racist, just innaccurate.

All available evidence suggests that immigration is a net contributor to the economy, including the cost of the NHS. Most immigrants are working age, and the vast bulk are aged 20-30. They pay taxes and NI but are much less likely to use the NHS.

Health tourism accounts for 0.3% of NHS costs.

The issue is that funding increases have not kept pace with growing and ageing population (and that is an issue across the whole of Europe). The decision to slow down NHS funding is a political decision, just like the decision to dramatically cut corporate tax rates since 2011.

Pointing towards "uncontrolled immigration and health tourism" as the "elephants in the room" is equivalent to complaining about a broken toenail when your kneecap has been shattered...
There are those of us who will believe "official' figures others will not and I'm in the latter category...

Many UK nationals believed PM Heath took us in to a trade agreement in the Common Market, the deception worked didn't it and over the 40 years of our unfortunate membership the truth has finally emerged that the intention was to strip European member countries of their indentities and democracy. I'm hoping the rotten edifice that is the EU will collapse soon, the shame is the result will be very painful for all involved. It's a pity Health and his ilk didn't heed Churchill's statement on his vision for the future of Europe post WW2.
CN211276 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:03 pm
I know as a fact that the result of the referendum raised fears about the staffing of the NHS in Wales. I would think it is the same throughout the UK.
Alfi wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:13 pm
Well it's about time we made it more appealing to our own folk, hard work never killed anyone.. Trouble is few are prepared anymore to put it in.
"The one who would whistle to Throbbing Gristle through harsh times in Umberstone Covert."

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Re: Who is to blame for NHS crisis?

Unread post by savvypaul » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:45 pm

Classicrock wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:18 pm
Immigrants on minimum wage pay little to no tax and are entitled to tax credits / universal benefit. Logic suggests they are a drain on public resources which they are entitled to use without paying much towards them. They benefit companies that want cheap labour not the exchequer. This is linked to drop in productivity as companies aren't concentrating on focusing on more productive workers and tighter control on staffing levels. Don't know if health tourism is significant but EU migrants having children and using the health service put a strain on resources to which they are not net contributors. Of course there are other factors such as the balls up in social care and people attending A&E for trivial reasons. Likely why Doc has been warned off. If he turns up at hospital medical profession are morally and ethically obliged to treat him. What some bureaucrat has told him is just to scare him off and won't count for much in practice.
Migrant workers pay the same rates of tax and National Insurance as British nationals. Why would you pick out only migrant workers to make the point about low tax yield from those earning minimum wage?

The minimum wage is too low. Increasing the minimum wage to £9 per hour would force companies to focus on productivity (and raise the tax take).

By any available data, migrants are net contributors to the British economy. You are barking up the wrong tree.
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savvypaul
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Re: Who is to blame for NHS crisis?

Unread post by savvypaul » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:50 pm

Alfi wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:42 pm
savvypaul wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:55 pm

Not racist, just innaccurate.

All available evidence suggests that immigration is a net contributor to the economy, including the cost of the NHS. Most immigrants are working age, and the vast bulk are aged 20-30. They pay taxes and NI but are much less likely to use the NHS.

Health tourism accounts for 0.3% of NHS costs.

The issue is that funding increases have not kept pace with growing and ageing population (and that is an issue across the whole of Europe). The decision to slow down NHS funding is a political decision, just like the decision to dramatically cut corporate tax rates since 2011.

Pointing towards "uncontrolled immigration and health tourism" as the "elephants in the room" is equivalent to complaining about a broken toenail when your kneecap has been shattered...
There are those of us who will believe "official' figures others will not and I'm in the latter category...

Many UK nationals believed PM Heath took us in to a trade agreement in the Common Market, the deception worked didn't it and over the 40 years of our unfortunate membership the truth has finally emerged that the intention was to strip European member countries of their indentities and democracy. I'm hoping the rotten edifice that is the EU will collapse soon, the shame is the result will be very painful for all involved. It's a pity Health and his ilk didn't heed Churchill's statement on his vision for the future of Europe post WW2.
The figures I referred to have been verified by independent organisations. The plural of anecdote is not data...
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Re: Who is to blame for NHS crisis?

Unread post by savvypaul » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:52 pm

Alfi wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:13 pm
Well it's about time we made it more appealing to our own folk, hard work never killed anyone.. Trouble is few are prepared anymore to put it in.
Raise the minimum wage, ban zero hours contracts, give proper worker protections and entitlements to those 'employed' in the 'gig economy'...
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Re: Who is to blame for NHS crisis?

Unread post by Hemmo1969 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:36 pm

savvypaul wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:45 pm
Classicrock wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:18 pm
Immigrants on minimum wage pay little to no tax and are entitled to tax credits / universal benefit. Logic suggests they are a drain on public resources which they are entitled to use without paying much towards them. They benefit companies that want cheap labour not the exchequer. This is linked to drop in productivity as companies aren't concentrating on focusing on more productive workers and tighter control on staffing levels. Don't know if health tourism is significant but EU migrants having children and using the health service put a strain on resources to which they are not net contributors. Of course there are other factors such as the balls up in social care and people attending A&E for trivial reasons. Likely why Doc has been warned off. If he turns up at hospital medical profession are morally and ethically obliged to treat him. What some bureaucrat has told him is just to scare him off and won't count for much in practice.
Migrant workers pay the same rates of tax and National Insurance as British nationals. Why would you pick out only migrant workers to make the point about low tax yield from those earning minimum wage?

The minimum wage is too low. Increasing the minimum wage to £9 per hour would force companies to focus on productivity (and raise the tax take).

By any available data, migrants are net contributors to the British economy. You are barking up the wrong tree.
Exactly ..... why use the word immigrants?? Unless you are pushing a bigoted racist view?

1: Anyone working in the lower earnings threshold pays little or no tax.... AND they would find themselves able to claim welfare benefits.
2: If you’ve ever holiday’d in Europe and fell ill or had an accident you too can walk into a hospital and be seen by a qualified doctor?? Why should we be any different??

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Re: Who is to blame for NHS crisis?

Unread post by ArseHats » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:15 pm

In a way, making "xenophobia" and "racism" taboos was one of the ideological and political breakthroughs of the 20th Century.
Ironically, one of Hitler's greatest legacies was to make accusations of "xenophobia" or "racism" almost as bad as being called a "paedophile".
But, this has also created a real problem in public debate. It means that almost no-one (maybe actually no-one) is willing to admit any xenophobic or racist thoughts of feelings of any kind. Even to themselves.
And yet, humans are instinctively tribal. The history of homo-sapiens is characterised by one group of human ganging up on, de-humanising and beating the shit out of another group. Thankfully, feelings of humanity, empathy and compassion also plough deeps furrows in our instincts and behaviour. But clearly, feelings of suspicion, fear and anger towards people who can be perceived of as being members of a different group is natural.
I am aware that I experience these to some extent, and I'm as wet a liberal as you'll find! I like to think I also feel more inclusive instincts, and that those instinct I feel more strongly than the excluding ones.
When a person invests their time and energy in the non-zero-sum arrangement that is "the economy", that economy doesn't care whether that person has arrived via a Ferry in Dover or via the birth canal of a British woman. And if "the economy" does care, it probably prefers the adult immigrant as the costs of their childhood education and health care are already paid for. (It is the country and the economy that they have left that is likely to lose out the most in this situation.) With regard to immigrant impact on public services, it makes sense to distribute new arrivals evenly so as not to create geographic pinch points. Moreover, there may be some lag in the economic pay-off of new arrivals. But this lag will almost certainly be shorter for an adult immigrant than it will be for a British born baby. And yet, it doesn't feel like that does it? A British born baby seems to have the right to be here, to be a part of our group so all is well. The economic migrant on the other hand...?
But as savvypaul points out this makes no economic or rational sense. Rational economics strikes back with those sneaky tricks of data and analysis!
In fact, when Mr. Farage told us that Britain and it's public services were at "Breaking Point", we should all have been waiting for him to make a speech about birth control and contraception, as natural population growth (births) accounts for 50% of the increase in human beings on our oh-so-creaking island. But that speech never came of course. Instead, Nigel seemed to focus exclusively on the other 50% of population growth. I would suggest that is because, like the rest of us, Mr. Farage experiences xenophobic instincts. (In fact I can't think of another reason why he, or me or anyone distinguishes between immigrant population growth and natural population growth.) Nigel may experience those instincts more strongly, or maybe is less consciously aware of them, or may self-deceive himself into considering them to be a form of ultra-patriotism, but I don't think there's anything unusual in the fact of his experiencing them. I also don't doubt that Nigel Farage feels humanity and empathy and compassion as well. Just like the rest of us do. We're all multi faceted.
I'm imagining that many reading this are finding it difficult to accept the suggestion that Nigel Farage, or me, or anyone, or you, is capable of xenophobic instincts. That's the problem. How can we safeguard ourselves against xenophobia or racism if it's such a taboo we're in collective denial about it and how they might be acting on us? How can we cluster our behaviours around the better angels of our nature if we can't be vigilant for the worse ones?
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Re: Who is to blame for NHS crisis?

Unread post by CN211276 » Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:29 pm

Going back to the topic heading, responsibility rests at the top. The English health minister is an arse and it has been acknowledged that funds have been misdirected. In Wales where the situation is not as serious, the Minister, his predecesor and senior officials are competent.
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Re: Who is to blame for NHS crisis?

Unread post by Shamanic » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:49 am

CN211276 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:29 pm
Going back to the topic heading, responsibility rests at the top. The English health minister is an arse and it has been acknowledged that funds have been misdirected. In Wales where the situation is not as serious, the Minister, his predecesor and senior officials are competent.
I live in Mid Wales, our local hospital only caters for minor injuries. Anything more serious and we have to go into England for treatment. Last year my daughter was taken into hospital in an emergency situation.....a 45 minute journey! A friend going for cancer treatment has to travel even further....over 75mins. So it might be ok in Cardiff but not that great for all of us.

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Re: Who is to blame for NHS crisis?

Unread post by Shamanic » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:49 am

CN211276 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:29 pm
Going back to the topic heading, responsibility rests at the top. The English health minister is an arse and it has been acknowledged that funds have been misdirected. In Wales where the situation is not as serious, the Minister, his predecesor and senior officials are competent.
I live in Mid Wales, our local hospital only caters for minor injuries. Anything more serious and we have to go into England for treatment. Last year my daughter was taken into hospital in an emergency situation.....a 45 minute journey! A friend going for cancer treatment has to travel even further....over 75mins. So it might be ok in Cardiff but not that great for all of us.

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Re: Who is to blame for NHS crisis?

Unread post by CN211276 » Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:06 am

Shamanic wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:49 am
CN211276 wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:29 pm
Going back to the topic heading, responsibility rests at the top. The English health minister is an arse and it has been acknowledged that funds have been misdirected. In Wales where the situation is not as serious, the Minister, his predecesor and senior officials are competent.
I live in Mid Wales, our local hospital only caters for minor injuries. Anything more serious and we have to go into England for treatment. Last year my daughter was taken into hospital in an emergency situation.....a 45 minute journey! A friend going for cancer treatment has to travel even further....over 75mins. So it might be ok in Cardiff but not that great for all of us.
It is all to do with population density, specialisation and centralisation of expertise. For this reason people in remote areas throughout the UK might have to travel long distances. Swansea handles burns cases from England.
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