The major problem with modern capitalism

[Macca]

To each according to their needs , from each according to their abilities .

Good example of what I'm talking about. In the intro to 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropist' Tressell says: 'The reason people do not agree with Socialism is that they do not understand it.'

ironically there is no better book to read if you want to find out exactly what the problem is with Socialism and Socialists: they cannot leave well enough alone.

[Daniel Quinn]

The world is unjust , unfair and many many people are forced to live precarious lives in which there is no hope of them fulfilling their potential and are forced in to mind numbing employment with little or no hope of them obtaining a sufficient share of available resources so as to protect them from an economic system that does not give a toss . And you want to leave matters as they are !!

every time we have this argument you trot out your daily mail idiots quide to socialism instead of actually engaging in what is said . I have no desire to curtail peoples choices , i merely wish to ensure they have sufficient resources , power and knowledge to make meaningful choices .

eating or putting 3 quid in your leccy meter is not a meaningful choice and you can bet i wish to deprive people of being able to make such choices .

[slinger]

To each according to their needs , from each according to their abilities .

And the purpose of advertising is to persuade us that "wants" is just another word for needs.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

Where there is no access to THE TRUTH! due to censorship, be it State, Commercial, Political or ego based as at AoS, you will see this flourish. Then the lies and bullshit will prevail and the mealy mouthed defense will always be "personal liberty and democracy" when in fact the opposite is true. The efficacy of this can be seen every time there is a US presidential election as an extreme example. Positive and negative lies in equal quantity, anything but THE TRUTH!

It is practiced in every form of business, institute, and institution from the Royal family downward - it seems we all need to sell ourselves as something we aren't, it is so ingrained it is seen as normal.

[Macca]

The world is unjust , unfair and many many people are forced to live precarious lives in which there is no hope of them fulfilling their potential and are forced in to mind numbing employment with little or no hope of them obtaining a sufficient share of available resources so as to protect them from an economic system that does not give a toss . And you want to leave matters as they are !!

.

It is up to them to improve their situation any way they can, assuming they are dissatisfied to begin with (an assumption that is often groundless). The world will always be unfair no matter what you do or how much you interfere in other's lives. it is the nature of what we are and where we exist, it cannot be any other way.

The problem with attempting to change that is that it actually leads to more suffering than there was already.
Socialists never examine their own motivations, but they are pretty straightforward. Rich socialists feel guilty that they are rich comparatively wealthy whilst others are poor so they become 'active' in championing the cause of the 'downtrodden.' This assuages the gulit and makes them feel important and morally superior. Note however that they never attempt to assuage the guilt by giving up all their money and living in poverty.

Poor socialists are socialist because they are hoping to get something for nothing.

The fact is your fundamental assumption - that people do stupid things because they don't know any better - is wrong. People do stupid things because they want to. Understand that and you understand everything about people.

[Daniel Quinn]

Once again you fob me off with your stock answers gleaned from the daily mail gudie to socailism , most of what you say above is abstract rubbish .

the issue are not about old draconian socialism anymore or the curtailing of freedom and liberty by a state dictator they are about concrete ideas that slowly change capitalism and expand majority freedoms by curtailing others .

ideas like

john lewis pay structure
maximum wage
reforming of limited liability companies
taxation of wealth not earnings
the cost of redundancy to fall upon profit making firms
more powers for the semantic accuracy and truth enforcement upon advertisements

and one i particularly like but nicked from the comedian mark thomas

every single model or person used in any advertising whatsoever to be chosen at random from the electoral register

As an aside , i have not said people do stupid things , that would require judgements i do not make .

the consequnces of a commodity narrative of bullshit and dishonesty are far more subtle and pernicious than simply saying people do stupid things .

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

There is a marketing conspiracy against socialism, initiated like all of these things in the US, and all you are doing Macca is showing your brainwash by just repeating it. Now I am NOT a socialist as such but I can see the process going on here very clearly. In some ways it was deserved when real Socialism (not labour party bullshit socialism) was like a group of cults with set in stone bigotries (Trotsky-ites etc), and the people involved were easy to take the piss out of. But now the philosophy is evolving with people who are willing to view the reality as opposed to the bullshit. It is the right wing and the capital system that is now set in stone and next to impossible to dislodge. Even with a disaster like 2008 we are just sleep walking into repeating it, no one seems capable of looking at the obvious alternatives. Too many vested interests, too much power base and too much personal wealth and self love invested in it.

[Macca]

Don't make the mistake of assuming that what we have now is capitalism. For thsoe who had not sussed that out already it was made quite clear when the banks went broke and were allowed to survive.

What we have at the present time is a combination of fake capitalism and fake socialism designed to benfit only those with the highest stake (i.e none of us).

The rot really started in the 1930s with FDR in the USA and the federal government there obtaining too much power and too much money to spend. Once governments get control of the money it is all over, corruption will rule.

DQ I agree with some of the items on your list, notably

john lewis pay structure
reforming of limited liability companies
the cost of redundancy to fall upon profit making firms

Although I don't agree that a company should be forced to follow the JL way of doing things it is a good way of giving employees a stake in the business and should be encouraged.

The rest is social engineering and that always ends badly due to the law of unintended consequences. You seem to think people need protecting from themselves hence the rules about advertising, I say again this is a big mistake that socialists make. People neither want nor desire to be protected from themselves and they are not as stupid as you think.

This was my point aboout Tressell's book - he thinks people don't agree with him because they are thick or uneducated. Such an elementary mistake but you repeat it with your Daily Mail slurs against me.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

When stupidity is viewed from a position of stupidity it looks normal.

[jammy395]

I did read T.R.T.P. but couldnt get to grips with it at all, i kind of lost the plot half way through.