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walterwhite
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Re: The Audio Standard Forum.

Unread post by walterwhite »

Lindsayt wrote:Cneck out the history of UK Government spending as a percentage of GDP here: http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/numbers?units=p and here: http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/past_spending

Over the last 100 years the long term trend has been for it to go up and up and up.

Also, Government spending increased in real terms during the Thatcher years. One could argue that spending should have increased with the massive rise of unemployment between 1979 and 1983, but spending didn't go down when unemployment went down. In purely monetary terms, Thatcher was a Big Government Spending Socialist.
That's a really interesting link - thanks for that. There's a wealth of info on there, and you can really dig down if you spend a little time. Many an untold tale lying there in the detail I suspect :think:
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Lindsayt
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Re: The Audio Standard Forum.

Unread post by Lindsayt »

walterwhite wrote:
Lindsayt wrote:Cneck out the history of UK Government spending as a percentage of GDP here: http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/numbers?units=p and here: http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/past_spending

Over the last 100 years the long term trend has been for it to go up and up and up.

Also, Government spending increased in real terms during the Thatcher years. One could argue that spending should have increased with the massive rise of unemployment between 1979 and 1983, but spending didn't go down when unemployment went down. In purely monetary terms, Thatcher was a Big Government Spending Socialist.
That's a really interesting link - thanks for that. There's a wealth of info on there, and you can really dig down if you spend a little time. Many an untold tale lying there in the detail I suspect :think:
Yes it's interesting what you can find out by looking at the figures.

For example:

In 1978 Jim Callaghan's Labour Government spent a totall of £71.9 billion.

In 2014 David Cameron's Conservative / Lib Dem coalition Government spent £714 billion.

If we adjust these figures according to the June 1978 to June 2014 RPI http://www.wolfbane.com/rpi.htm

£71.9 billion in 1978 is the equivalent to £368.6 billion in 2014's terms.


Which makes todays Conservative coalition Government about twice as socialistic as the Pre-Thatcher Labour Government.

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Re: The Audio Standard Forum.

Unread post by Daniel Quinn »

I suspect you gest somewhat lyndsey , but it is of course not quiet as simple as that .

health services inflation is something like 10x higher over the same period .

technological advancements mean it costs more to do the same thing - cancer drugs , triple heart bypass , police the nation , arm our services .

demographic changes mean it costs more to do the same - pensions, schools

societal expectations mean it costs more per se .

the declining rate of profit and capitalism's logic of wealth concentration means the government as to step in to subsidize low wages and keep the economy growing ,

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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Re: The Audio Standard Forum.

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Well simply like house prices it is another bubble that will burst. We simply will not be able to afford it. It will mean collapse or finding another way to do it. National Insurance is very unwieldy blunt sledge hammer as it is a blanket and costs far too much to admin.

Different things will have different solutions. As an example the Police service could be financed from fines and asset seizure.

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Re: The Audio Standard Forum.

Unread post by Daniel Quinn »

It is not a question of affordability IMO . The amount of private wealth held is trillions and trillions and it dwarfs the defecit. This wealth is largely unproductive , it employs few people and doesn't do a great deal .

We need a re balance from private to public .

Fair and proportionate taxation of all wealth and a debate as to what the state pay for and how it does it .

In sweden taxation is significantly higher than here , but you get more for it . there is a collective looking after everybody , you are no simply fed to the wolves when you become unemployed , old or ill .
Last edited by Daniel Quinn on Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Audio Standard Forum.

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

Sorry to bug you again Terry but can you separate the tax stuff into a separate thread.

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Re: The Audio Standard Forum.

Unread post by walterwhite »

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote:Sorry to bug you again Terry but can you separate the tax stuff into a separate thread.
Yes, move it please, I'd stick in my ha'porth but don't want to hijack the thread.
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Re: The Audio Standard Forum.

Unread post by Lindsayt »

Daniel Quinn wrote:I suspect you gest somewhat lyndsey , but it is of course not quiet as simple as that .

health services inflation is something like 10x higher over the same period .

technological advancements mean it costs more to do the same thing - cancer drugs , triple heart bypass , police the nation , arm our services .

demographic changes mean it costs more to do the same - pensions, schools

societal expectations mean it costs more per se .

the declining rate of profit and capitalism's logic of wealth concentration means the government as to step in to subsidize low wages and keep the economy growing ,
No, no gesting here. Just a simple statement of fact.

Between 1978 and 2014 we had 36 years of technological improvement.

The private manufacturing sector managed to make very significant reductions in cost whilst increasing output over that period.

Any non-socialistic government would have sought to do the same in that period. Better goods and services for lower cost in real terms.

Why is it that technological advancement in the private sector has always equalled producing more or better goods or services for less money, whilst in the public sector it's acceptable - for some people - to equate technological advancement with greater cost for the same overall levels of service?

Do you have the demographic figures to back up your statement about pensions and schools? In 1978, how many people over the age of 65 lived in the UK? In 2014 what was that figure? And what were the corresponding figures for 5 to 18 year olds? I've done a quick Google and couldn't find these figures.

Why should something cost more because of societal expectations? Or do you mean that you think that society expects the Government to increase its socialistic spending and therefore that's what the Government does? Yes, there may be some truth in that. Which underlines my statement about Cameron's Government being more socialistic than Callaghan's.


And again, if you feel that the Government of today has to step in subsidize low wages and to keep the economy growing - more so than in Callaghan's day - then again that reinforces my point that Cameron's Government is more Socialistic.



How about judging how socialistic a government is by looking at the spending in real terms, instead of judging it by the rhetoric of the politicians and the press?



And here's another question. How many people do you know that are fully aware of the long term trends in Government spending, and how many people do you know that are pretty much ignorant of this information?

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Re: The Audio Standard Forum.

Unread post by Daniel Quinn »

You have clarified what was a basic comparison with a more comprehensive response .Alas I am on the train with a Stella rushing home to my baby or perhaps my new phono stage :grin

I will be back. But

I am not sure what point you are making .spending more than callaghan makes dave a socialist. Or public spending is to high.

To begin with a better comparison than the one you employ is govt spending as a percentage of gdp

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Tax

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