EXPERTS

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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EXPERTS

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:29 pm

Lets bring another close thread across for us. removing Trolls again.

Richard Dunn

Why are people always looking for experts, it is true of most markets / hobbies but just seem excessive in hi-fi. What is an expert, usually self apointed, or some are daftly even paid for it. I am afraid I am very controversial per usual - there aren't any OR everyone is one. You only know what you know and what you hear, that is your expertise and your leaning curve - no one elses.

So many threads asking "what is your opinion of ****", what makes far more sense is "I have just tried **** and this is what I think", and your opinion is far more valid than ANYONE else, because it is your ears and your music. It will be a learning growing process for that is *yours* not passing responsibility to someone elses ears and music.

Plus far too many vested interests on forums.

J Macquarrie

An expert is someone who has already made all the mistakes within a very specialised field.

Richard Dunn

Their mistakes are not yours, you learn nothing.

Tony_J

"An expert is any ordinary person that is more than 50 miles away from home."
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orsimilar

From brief browsing here, an expert seems to be anyone with an opinion.

Not my definition, but I'm no expert.

Richard Dunn

Expressing an opinion is not being an expert, an experts dismisses the newbies opinion as he is obviously (in his own mind ) superior. There develops a perceived hierachy of expertness, that is completely delusionary. I would prefer someone to say, "I know feck all but I am really enjoying this!!", then I want to find out what he is hearing.

Stidge

I agree with this. I remember reading another forum where one of the long term members was dismissing a posting describing the poster as a 'junior' member. Just because you posted a lot on a forum doesn't mean you are any more of an 'expert' than someone who hasn't posted at all. If, say, Nelson Pass started posting on that forum would they dismiss his knowledge as bogus because he was a junior member? Hmmm, probably.

You can always have an opinion but your opinion is no more or less valid than anyone else's

rabski

"Do you think A sounds better than B"? Answer = opinion.

"Does cartidge A match with phono stage B"? Answer (if correct) = expert.

One is subjective, the other objective.

Richard Dunn

You don't need some daft self appointed expert, that is what the manufacturer is for.

Stidge

Ah but 'match' in what way?

If you mean sounds good then that is an opinion if you mean from cartridge loading or similar then maybe you have experience of that combination. Doesn't make you an expert if you have never used any other combination of cartridge and phono stage. It could be that google was the 'expert' here. Anyone can do a search.....

Stidge

Does experience = expertise? I don't think so

Richard Dunn

Expertise is relative in principle, but is absolute for the individual until his learning curve progesses. Yes we progress and learn but each stage we go through is (or should be) OURS.

dudywoxer

Is the question "what do you think off" looking for expert response. I would have thought it was looking for opinion.

I can think of plenty of times in my life, both working and private, where the expert, or professional advice has been of great benefit. Opinionated Herbert's on a hi-fi forum, not so much.

rabski

Stidge said:
Ah but 'match' in what way?

If you mean sounds good then that is an opinion if you mean from cartridge loading or similar then maybe you have experience of that combination. Doesn't make you
an expert if you have never used any other combination of cartridge and phono stage. It could be that google was the 'expert' here. Anyone can do a search.....

I mean matching a cartridge., SUT and phono in terms of impedance, loading, etc.

And don't always believe Google on such matters. More than once it has not been entirely correct.

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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Re: EXPERTS

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:41 pm

orsimilar

Richard Dunn said:
You don't need some daft self appointed expert, that is what the manufacturer is for.

Manufacturers do not always have a reputation for being impartial and unbiased, and I wouldn't expect them to have.

Richard Dunn

And the forum experts have always been right :roll: :whistle:

I have seen complete nonsense posted as fact on forums. For example the ONLY way to make a MC cart work properly is with a SUT - complete nonsense. Standing up to that statement got me banned from a certain forum, where the pretend expert was the forum owner.

Richard Dunn

orsimilar said:
Manufacturers do not always have a reputation for being impartial and unbiased, and I wouldn't expect them to have.

You are not asking opinion you asking about matching, that was the statement.

Nopiano

There are probably a couple of reasons that others views are sought on Hifi:

1. Anyone with a bit of experience will realise how much they’ve learned and be keen to hear views of others who may have ‘been there’ already.

2. Someone with little or no experience will have found magazines, sellers or manufacturers confusing or contradictory, and probably believe that someone here has no vested interest (unless they wear a dealer badge).

Somewhere like this is surely self-regulating for obvious mistakes, because of the number of views and contributions.

Richard Dunn

If someone asks me a question I will reply as honestly as I can, but often people want to hear what they expect to hear, or what others have said - there are just so many old wives tales perpetrated around forum it is frightening. They become implanted in the conscious, we had one recently about Quad 57's being a capacitive load, say that is wrong on some forums and you are labelled a looney, here some (enough) people know the truth and say it. There are many many similar examples. I have had a forum say that you should never use NVA amps with electrostatica as they don't like capacitive loads - you see complete lack of understanding and pretend experts spouting. If they just shut up and let people discover for themselves or recommend them to speak to people who actually know like the designer it would be seen as the nonsense that it is. I actually developed the circuit using Quad 57 as ref speaker.

Anyway that is just a BTW example. Not so bad now though we are getting better, at least at forums the pretenders can be called out (as long as not the owner) but how did you call out magazines and reviewers and the bloody nonsense most of the spouted back in the flat earth.

bandit pilot

Depends on your definition of certain things I suppose.

Despite what I used to read (and take as gospel) I have never really had my veil lifted, or experienced inky black silence.

There's a lot of utter bllx spouted in this daft hobby. But were it not for this hobby, I wouldn't have met a lot of good friends, so it's got it's uses.

Blacksabbath25

yep none of us are experts and i have never pretend to be one if i do not no then i will not join in simple really and what experience i learned over the years i will try to help where i can and that's all i can do Really but i have made loads of mistakes as well over the years before i got things right for myself

But i am not a person who bangs on about spec sheets or blind tests you just need to try theses things yourself with your own ears to find out really

Richard Dunn

"before I got things right" - so how do you know there is not right-er. No one has got it right as no one knows what the ultimate right point is - it is a journey for everyone.

uzzy

I think we all like to hear the views of someone with considerable experience in a field we are interested in .. in here it is hifi. As for an expert in hifi I am not sure that moniker exists. There are experts in amplifier design theory and loudspeaker design theory and cable theory and digital theory and they can talk the hind leg off a donkey (mind you so can I and I am no expert except in talking the hind leg off a donkey)

Back to the topic, I think talking to someone with considerable experience over many years of different types of kit and systems is my kind of expert - I may not agree with all of their views but usually there are some nuggets of information to be had.

chebby

Does it sound nice? (Pleasing, good tone, exciting, relaxing or whatever your taste is.) Does it look good, or at least fit in ok? Is the price right? Does it do what you need it to do? (Connectivity, functions etc.)

What else is there? I guess build quality, fit and finish lends itself to ‘pride of ownership’ if it looks and feels nice too.

I suppose it’s nice to find out the experts also ‘rate’ it highly. (More money when you finally sell it maybe.) But it’s not as important as having something that you look forward to using every day.

rabski

Many decades in assorted fields of business suggest to me that 'experience' beats 'expertise' every time.

On more than one occasion, I've had to go to a company to put right what 'experts' have done.

dudywoxer

Richard Dunn said:

"before I got things right" - so how do you know there is not right-er. No one has got it right as no one knows what the ultimate right point is - it is a journey for
everyone.

it could be that some people have got it right for themselves. There may be a ''righter'' but no desire to search for it. When you have a system that gives you a great amount of musical enjoyment every time you use it why mess. I am happy with my simple set up, and failing terminal failure of anything , or huge technological change that will be it for a good long time. I would far rather spend spare pennies on discs of one sort or another.

Blacksabbath25

I do find in great pleasure when someone that is very knowledgeable talks about a subject like the benefits of amplifier and the different types and what the Pro & cons are of each or talking about speakers the difference between the different types that sort of thing as I am learning more myself about the hobby

But I do not really like talking about cables as I can’t get my head around the bull that comes with it and find it very boring

But apart from hifi I like talking about music and the artist because that’s what we all have in common really the love of music

Richard Dunn

Dudy - So don't tell people you have reached the ultimate, as many of the people I am refering to think it and some say it - ludicrous. One of them runs the other forum you post on (that I know about).

And new ones are being created all the time, I wont use names but again at that forum is a newbie who has posto-mania and box swopper-phrenia, who every time something new appears it is the ultimate, and it just goes on and on, and the levels of pretend expertise is astonishing, yet no one calls him on it, so bad information just pollutes the knowlege stream. So in this case even a newby can try and set himself up as a guru - we need to shut these people up by taking the piss out of them and promote people learning for themselves.

Richard Dunn

Blacksabbath25 said:
I do find in great pleasure when someone that is very knowledgeable talks about a subject like the benefits of amplifier and the different types and what the Pro &
cons are of each or talking about speakers the difference between the different types that sort of thing as I am learning more myself about the hobby
But I do not really like talking about cables as I can’t get my head around the bull that comes with it and find it very boring
But apart from hifi I like talking about music and the artist because that’s what we all have in common really the love of music

I think you miss the point of the thread.

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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Re: EXPERTS

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:00 pm

dudywoxer

Richard Dunn said:
Dudy - So don't tell people you have reached the ultimate, as many of the people I am refering to think it and some say it - ludicrous. One of them runs the other forum you post on (that I know about).

And new ones are being created all the time, I wont use names but again at that forum is a newbie who has posto-mania and box swopper-phrenia, who every time something new appears it is the ultimate, and it just goes on and on, and the levels of pretend expertise is astonishing, yet no one calls him on it, so bad information just pollutes the knowlege stream. So in this case even a newby can try and set himself up as a guru - we need to shut these people up by taking the piss out of them and promote people learning for themselves.

every walk of life has it's self appointed experts. In HiFi they often turn up flavour of the day/week/month threads, with the much lauded stuff appearing in the classifieds or e-bay the month after. Sometimes it may be OK to prod their ego, other times it seems better to give them enough string. If you think hifi forums are overful of self appointed experts, try angling in general, and carp angling in particular. More marketing and bullshit per printed page than you can shake a stick at. Unlike HiFi it's a growing market, and seen as being worth the effort by the marketing men. The knowledge stream is what you know, what you have learned, and what experience tells you, there are however areas where ''experts'' do have much more knowledge than the average guy. The nice part is they don't see themselves as expert, and are quiet unasumming guys who dont clutter up the forums.

complin

Richard Dunn said:
There are many many similar examples. I have had a forum say that you should never use NVA amps with electrostatica as they don't like capacitive loads - you see complete lack of understanding and pretend experts spouting. If they just shut up and let people discover for themselves or recommend them to speak to people who actually know like the designer it would be seen as the nonsense that it is. I actually developed the circuit using Quad 57 as ref speaker.

Thats something most people would not know and ought to be more widely publicised. Its is known though that the 57's do send many even expensive amps unstable and they end up in a puff of smoke which is why people agonise about their suitability for the very wide impedance load range of the 57.

Blacksabbath25

dudywoxer said:
every walk of life has it's self appointed experts. In HiFi they often turn up flavour of the day/week/month threads, with the much lauded stuff appearing in the classifieds or e-bay the month after. Sometimes it may be OK to prod their ego, other times it seems better to give them enough string. If you think hifi forums are overful of self appointed experts, try angling in general, and carp angling in particular. More marketing and bullshit per printed page than you can shake a stick at. Unlike HiFi it's a growing market, and seen as being worth the effort by the marketing men. The knowledge stream is what you know, what you have learned, and what experience tells you, there are however areas where ''experts'' do have much more knowledge than the average guy. The nice part is they don't see themselves as expert, and are quiet unasumming guys who dont clutter up the forums.

The thing is what would you class as an expert ? Do you have to have a degree electronics , be a hifi dealer because what ever answer you put you wrong and if you no something then you no as it not a crime to say you no but doesn’t make you an expert .

And what the point of a forum if can not voice your opinion or you no something it’s a forum

newlash09

I haven't heard much in my life. So I tend to seek the help of other members who have heard a lot more kit. And after spending some time on a forum, we start developing bonds of trust. They for me are the experts I can trust. So being an expert is a relative term. Surely depends on where your looking from :)
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Richard Dunn

complin said:
Thats something most people would not know and ought to be more widely publicised. Its is kown though that the 57's do send many even expensive amps unstable and they end up in a puff of smoke which is why people agonise about their suitabiity for the very wide impedance load range of the 57.

Not true, they are pretty easy to drive, the one with the reputation for blowing amps up is the 63, especially the early ones with a crowbar protection circuit. Even when they stopped that dafness you still had that delay line. They got it right in the 57 then fecked it up largely in the 63.

complin

Richard Dunn said:
Not true, they are pretty easy to drive, the one with the reputation for blowing amps up is the 69, especially the early ones with a crowbar protection circuit. Even when they stopped that dafness you still had that delay line. They got it right in the 57 then fecked it up largely in the 69.

HiFi News Review of ESL 57's - November 1957

It was designed to work with the Quad II amplifier, but any equivalent amplifier can be used.

Specific Amplifier Requirements

When adjusted to a fixed suitable output tap, the amplifier should be capable of delivering at least 15 watts at low distortion when a resistive load is varied between 30 ohms and 7 ohms.

The amplifier must be statically and dynamically stable completely regardless of the resistance or reactance of the load. An inductance of up to 10,uH may be inserted in series with the load during these tests.

With a 30 ohm resistive load, the amplifier should at no time be capable of producing more than 35 peak volts across the loudspeaker terminals.

The source impedance of the amplifier should be not more than 2 ohms in the frequency range 100-5,000 c/s and not more than 6 ohms in the range 40-20,000 cls. Ideally this impedance should be equivalent to a 1-2 ohm resistor in series with a 40 uH inductance.

Ipsofacto

Richard Dunn said:
Not true, they are pretty easy to drive, the one with the reputation for blowing amps up is the 63, especially the early ones with a crowbar protection circuit. Even when they stopped that daftness you still had that delay line. They got it right in the 57 then fecked it up largely in the 63.

Playing devil's advocate here Richard, but your dismissal of everyone's opinion in this thread regarding what constitutes an expert (or not), whilst also commenting authoritatively on other subjects (see highlighted), puts you at risk of coming across as that which you yourself despise: an expert.

That said, of course I understand your wider point (which I tend to agree with given how subjective our hobby is), but this is a forum: a medium for the free exchange of opinions.

Richard Dunn

complin - Do you understand what that says. What are you trying to tell me.

Richard Dunn

Ipso - Where did I say I didn't know what I am talking about. I am talking experience not as an expert. I have NEVER claimed to be an expert. I know what I know. There is not much hope for us if you cannot even work out what the thread is about.

Richard Dunn

Far from it, that is why there is so much false and bad information spread around the forums, people speaking as experts without experience and knowlege, or not enough to pretend to know or convince others they know. Much is just like Chinese whispers, someone says it, someone else repeats, and the information gets more and more corrupted. Which is why people with experience have to correct them - IF ALLOWED - and often we are not, recently seen in some mains elec threads here.

Richard Dunn

No one is an expert yet we are all experts in what we know and experience. Can't you see I am directing this at the masses of false gurus that pollute the forums, who just repeat and pretend.

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