PFM

Commentaries on other forums, people, events etc.
Forum rules
1. No ad-hominem
2. No spamming or shilling
User avatar
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Posts: 28648
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:26 pm
Location: Muppet Labs
Great Britain

Re: PFM

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:18 pm

keepitsimplestupid wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:09 pm
Daniel Quinn wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:26 am
That would of course mean that builders of a certain nirvana based Phono stage are deluded.
Please explain your post. I'm sure myself and all the other builders of the Paradise would love to benefit from your experience and technical expertise in this area.

Is it that you don't think that careful matching of input stage transistors in a zero feedback amp proving 1500x gain is pointless, or that the swap to a later revision of the PSU board with an extra 3rd cap in the smoothing bank, taking a C-L-C-R filter to a C-L-C-R-C filter is pointless?
It is your baby and you love it, perhaps it is time for another baby contest, the truth always comes out if people want it to and are willing to participate.

Daniel Quinn
Posts: 7162
Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:16 am
Nicaragua

Re: PFM

Unread post by Daniel Quinn » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:23 pm

You mistake me for someone who cares what you think sq ;)
Even a stroke didn't result in me liking AOS

keepitsimplestupid
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:18 pm
Great Britain

Re: PFM

Unread post by keepitsimplestupid » Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:00 pm

Daniel Quinn wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:23 pm
You mistake me for someone who cares what you think sq ;)
No, apparently I mistook you for someone who values right and wrong.


Doc, it's not really my baby. I've contributed a little to the knowledge base on how to build them and I did a run of PCBs (at cost) for anyone who missed out on the original group buy PSU-PCB offer.

I don't need a phonostage bakeoff to tell me that adding a third capacitor to a mains PSU filter bank can help reduce mains ripple further. I have an oscilloscope for that.

I find bake offs tend to be a bit like a Nordost cable demo, there's always one guy trying to influence everyone and tell them what they should think. I don't think one can beat a simple long term home demo of an item to ascertain its performance and likability.

I don't have an interest in comparing a Paradise to other phonostages; I've done that already. There's been no paradigm shift in phonostage design since I did, and no new entrants into the top of the market at anywhere near a price that i could afford, so my search is done. Should anyone else want to hear one then there's plenty enough of them out there for them to hear one. It's a bit like looking through the glass of a closed sweet shop window though- you can't generally buy a Paradise, so why bother tormenting oneself by going to listen to one?

Lurcher300b
Posts: 551
Joined: Tue Jun 14, 2016 1:58 pm
Great Britain

Re: PFM

Unread post by Lurcher300b » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:03 pm

only the things that matter matter :-). The trick is to find which those mattering things are.
Can I just clear up any confusion, I would regard the matching of the transistor in the front of the paradise as one of those things that matter. However I have seen in forums some people taking that matching way beyond the point where it makes a difference. Beyond a point the only way to match parts is in the circuit they are used in, or a matching rig that simulates the expected operating conditions. Static matching can only take you so far.

User avatar
Lindsayt
Posts: 2508
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:06 pm
Marshall Islands

Re: PFM

Unread post by Lindsayt » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:18 pm

keepitsimplestupid wrote:
Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:00 pm

...I find bake offs tend to be a bit like a Nordost cable demo, there's always one guy trying to influence everyone and tell them what they should think. I don't think one can beat a simple long term home demo of an item to ascertain its performance and likability...
Bake-offs are subject to the integrity of the participants.

If there's someone at or after the bake-off expressing different qualities to what I heard (EG vinyl source A had better bass than source B when I heard it the other way round) or widely different quantities (EG phono stage A was pissed on by phono stage B when I heard audible but not huge differences) then I'm not going to change my mind.

And sometimes bake-offs are more an exercise in psychology than the merits of the equipment, especially when one or more participants has a vested emotional interest in one component and lacks integrity.

However, what I usually find at bake-offs is that there's a good consensus on the nature of the differences. And that bake-offs are a good truth test to the online forum hyperbole that can build up on certain products.

And a long term home demo is only an extended personal bake-off, assuming there's a resident component being compared against. And I have always found that any significant differences between components has always been apparent during the first few minutes of a bake-off (same track same volume or with the better component at a slightly lower volume) and that long term home demos have never told me anything important that I couldn't hear during the first track anyway.

Anyway, I don't agree that long term home demos do beat bake-offs. And that this is especially true when someone is doing a long term home demo and never invites anyone whose opinion I trust to come and listen.

User avatar
savvypaul
Posts: 2134
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:14 pm
Location: Durham
Contact:
Great Britain

Re: PFM

Unread post by savvypaul » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:39 pm

I agree that differences can be heard pretty quickly at bake offs.

Bake offs have the advantage of bringing several bits of kit to one place - an insight into more of the 'runners and riders' and a chance to have wider experience in the room.

Home trials are fine but you are only comparing A against B. If neither is great then you haven't achieved very much.

In theory, bake offs are no less open to agendas than forum 'user testimonials' but such agendas should be easier to spot at bake offs. If everyone in the room is disinterested when one one bit of kit plays but then one attendee says that said kit was the winner (or very close to) then that sticks out pretty quickly.

The more bake offs you can get to, the better, imo.
"The one who would whistle to Throbbing Gristle through harsh times in Umberstone Covert."

NVA BMU / WTL Versalex / Transfiguration Axia /NVA Phono2 w/ 2nd PSU / GSP Revelation C / Vortexbox Appliance NAS Server / Sonore microRendu USB streamer w/ LPSU / Chord 2Qute USB dac / NVA P90sa / NVA A80MK2 (bass) / NVA A70 MK2 (tweeters) / NVA Cube 1 / NVA TIS MK1 / NVA SSPMK2 / NVA LS6 / NVA AP10H (& 1x additional PS) / Audeze LCD-2

User avatar
Dr Bunsen Honeydew
Posts: 28648
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:26 pm
Location: Muppet Labs
Great Britain

Re: PFM

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:14 pm

There may not be something new but there are many old things pre your baby that will see it off with no trouble at all*, but you haven't listened to them.

*Obviously IMO.

Over complicated hi-fi v music, should be a good fun bake off. And you are wrong no one dominates any I have been to, are you referring to yourself :mrgreen:

User avatar
Lindsayt
Posts: 2508
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:06 pm
Marshall Islands

Re: PFM

Unread post by Lindsayt » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:18 pm

I have seen the "There was a dominant personality at the bake-off" card played as a way to try to discredit the results of a bake-off, where the manufacturer's marketing man wasn't happy with the reported results.

keepitsimplestupid
Posts: 95
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:18 pm
Great Britain

Re: PFM

Unread post by keepitsimplestupid » Sun Apr 15, 2018 11:43 pm

I've been lucky enough to have listened to many of the stand-out solid state phonostages of the last 30 years, there's some great ones out there with John Curls Vendetta, Mark levinsons 25s and the Lyra Connoisseur being the most memorable. The step-up equipped Rega Ios was also an eye opener and is hugely underrated. I'm sure there's literally hundreds more real belters I've not heard or even heard of.

I'm not interested in valve kit, but have heard some great sounds from Graham Tricker's Tron, I heard the EMT JP 66 at Munich and
Also liked the M9 from Audio Note. These were all on different systems though.

Sit me down with a pile of money to buy or build, and keep the change that I don't spend, and I'd still be listening to the same kit.

There's always an agenda at a bake off, just bubbling under the surface, IME.

User avatar
Lindsayt
Posts: 2508
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:06 pm
Marshall Islands

Re: PFM

Unread post by Lindsayt » Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:47 am

keepitsimplestupid, are you willing or are you not willing to attend a phono stage bake-off with your project?

Post Reply