Is class D Hi-Fi?

[valvesRus]

And therefore the Rowland 925 should NOT be used as an example of competence by Rowland in terms of the sound quality.
But it would be fair to hold it up as an example of competence in Veblen marketing.

As NO ONE here has ever heard this Rowland 925, how on earth can any comment about sound quality be made ?

I agree that it could be classed as a Veblen product, but I personally have no problem with that. What rich people spend their money on is their business.


*

[NSNO2021]

I had to look up the meaning of "veblen" and when I did I shrugged my shoulders and thought I really don't care if the Rowland amp is or is not an example of veblen. I am never going to hear one, never going to know anyone who has bought one etc etc.

In the final analysis the question was are class D amps Hi-FI and given theirs no agreed definition of hi-fi it's obviously a question with no legitimate true answer. FWIW Nelson Pass believes the very best class D amps are good and improving at some pace and I think Nelson is a man worth listening to regarding amp design.

[Lindsayt]

And therefore the Rowland 925 should NOT be used as an example of competence by Rowland in terms of the sound quality.
But it would be fair to hold it up as an example of competence in Veblen marketing.

As NO ONE here has ever heard this Rowland 925, how on earth can any comment about sound quality be made ?

I agree that it could be classed as a Veblen product, but I personally have no problem with that. What rich people spend their money on is their business.


*

Because World Class amplifiers by sound quality can be made / sold / bought for less than £3000.

So that even if this amplifier is World Class by Sound Quality, it's still an example of incompetence from the designer because it's so bloody stupidly expensive.
And it's quite a big IF that it is actually World Class by Sound Quality. Because it's Class D.

If Rowland was a leading exponent of amplifier design - and not just going for Veblen marketing - the 925 would sell for less than £3000.

[valvesRus]

Because World Class amplifiers by sound quality can be made / sold / bought for less than £3000.

What "world class" amplifiers do you know that cost less than £3,000 ?

And of that list how many have you actually heard, and if not who says they are "world class" ?

Actually, what does "world class" really mean ?

[Geoff.R.G]

And therefore the Rowland 925 should NOT be used as an example of competence by Rowland in terms of the sound quality.
But it would be fair to hold it up as an example of competence in Veblen marketing.

As NO ONE here has ever heard this Rowland 925, how on earth can any comment about sound quality be made ?

I agree that it could be classed as a Veblen product, but I personally have no problem with that. What rich people spend their money on is their business.


*

Because World Class amplifiers by sound quality can be made / sold / bought for less than £3000.

So that even if this amplifier is World Class by Sound Quality, it's still an example of incompetence from the designer because it's so bloody stupidly expensive.
And it's quite a big IF that it is actually World Class by Sound Quality. Because it's Class D.

If Rowland was a leading exponent of amplifier design - and not just going for Veblen marketing - the 925 would sell for less than £3000.

It has often been said that a product is only worth as much as someone will pay for it. That is misleading because there are products that a small number of people will buy simply because they are expensive and, said buyers perceive, exclusive. However once the claims in the brochure are considered it becomes apparent that the Rowland 925 is expensive because, if we believe what we are told, it is massively over engineered.

Active power factor correction, why, if it mattered other people would have been doing it for years.
Aircraft grade aluminium, aircraft alloys are generally about strength rather than heat dissipation, at 35,000 feet the temperature is -56c, losing heat isn’t actually very difficult. Getting it from the electronics to the outside can be challenging when the structure is an insulator (Carbon composite).
Specially made XLR connectors, expensive because of the very low production. The recording industry and live sound people use Neutric connectors, or similar. They are more concerned with what a Grand Piano does to it.

You don’t sell a $50,000 amp to a musician, you sell it to someone with too much money.

[valvesRus]

In the final analysis the question was are class D amps Hi-FI and given theirs no agreed definition of hi-fi it's obviously a question with no legitimate true answer. FWIW Nelson Pass believes the very best class D amps are good and improving at some pace and I think Nelson is a man worth listening to regarding amp design.

I am in full agreement with the above.

My recent experience with class D is limited to a rather cheapChinese TPA3116 50w chip amp module, albeit with a half decent power supply of my own making. I find it an absolute bargain at the price and I could live with it if it were my only amp.

[CN211276]

And therefore the Rowland 925 should NOT be used as an example of competence by Rowland in terms of the sound quality.
But it would be fair to hold it up as an example of competence in Veblen marketing.

As NO ONE here has ever heard this Rowland 925, how on earth can any comment about sound quality be made ?

I agree that it could be classed as a Veblen product, but I personally have no problem with that. What rich people spend their money on is their business.


*

Because World Class amplifiers by sound quality can be made / sold / bought for less than £3000.

So that even if this amplifier is World Class by Sound Quality, it's still an example of incompetence from the designer because it's so bloody stupidly expensive.
And it's quite a big IF that it is actually World Class by Sound Quality. Because it's Class D.

If Rowland was a leading exponent of amplifier design - and not just going for Veblen marketing - the 925 would sell for less than £3000.

I had an instance of this on the Facebook Chord users group the other day. Someone posted a glowing What HiFi five star review of a Chord power amp (don't know if it is Class D) costing over 9K. I commented that What HiFi reviews should be taken with a tonne of salt and the amp could be bettered at lower cost. Someone who had bought the Chord amp was quite narked saying it was better than the Naim amp he had previously owned. Hardly surprjisbing. The cheaper amp I referred to was of course NVA A80s.

[CN211276]

Because World Class amplifiers by sound quality can be made / sold / bought for less than £3000.

What "world class" amplifiers do you know that cost less than £3,000 ?

And of that list how many have you actually heard, and if not who says they are "world class" ?

Actually, what does "world class" really mean ?

World Class = as good sounding as any other products ever made in a swings and roundabouts give or take a little bit kind of way. It's when you get to the point where other components may sound different but they don't sound better overall. Or it's where you get to the point where any sonic flaws when compared to other products are nit picking. Where, for example, you have to do level matched A to B demos on several tracks to decide which sounds better and why. Or where one component sounds better in one system and its competitor sounds better in another.

When it comes to amplifiers you can for reasonable money get to the stage where improvements are so miniscule that they are swamped by differences in speakers. When you get to that sort of ballpark for amplification I'd say you have world class amplification.
It's bonkers when someone gets anal about their amplification when they have low efficiency slimline ported speakers, or ATC SCM 11's. They are just focusing on the icing on top of the cake, when they should be looking at the sponge and the filling.

There's also to some extent horses for courses with amplification. So that, for example Coincident Frankenstein Prototypes sound better than NVA A80's on medium efficiency Impulse Tau's in a smallish room at generous but not too loud volumes. But wouldn't sound better with Linn Isobariks at loud volumes in a large room.

Some examples of amps I've heard that I'd consider World Class:
Coincident Frankenstein, Korneff clone, Urei 6290, NVA Statement, Nick Gorham 211 SET, Steve57's DIY'd SET.
There may well be plenty of others that I've heard but was not able to isolate the contribution the amplifer was making.

And as to who says that my list of World Class amplifiers are World Class? Me. Of course.

This is, after all, Hi-fi Subjectivist forum. It's perfectly fine if the opninions expressed on this forum are subjective. And if your list of World Class amplifiers is different to mine.

[Lindsayt]

As NO ONE here has ever heard this Rowland 925, how on earth can any comment about sound quality be made ?

I agree that it could be classed as a Veblen product, but I personally have no problem with that. What rich people spend their money on is their business.


*

Because World Class amplifiers by sound quality can be made / sold / bought for less than £3000.

So that even if this amplifier is World Class by Sound Quality, it's still an example of incompetence from the designer because it's so bloody stupidly expensive.
And it's quite a big IF that it is actually World Class by Sound Quality. Because it's Class D.

If Rowland was a leading exponent of amplifier design - and not just going for Veblen marketing - the 925 would sell for less than £3000.

It has often been said that a product is only worth as much as someone will pay for it. That is misleading because there are products that a small number of people will buy simply because they are expensive and, said buyers perceive, exclusive. However once the claims in the brochure are considered it becomes apparent that the Rowland 925 is expensive because, if we believe what we are told, it is massively over engineered.

Active power factor correction, why, if it mattered other people would have been doing it for years.
Aircraft grade aluminium, aircraft alloys are generally about strength rather than heat dissipation, at 35,000 feet the temperature is -56c, losing heat isn’t actually very difficult. Getting it from the electronics to the outside can be challenging when the structure is an insulator (Carbon composite).
Specially made XLR connectors, expensive because of the very low production. The recording industry and live sound people use Neutric connectors, or similar. They are more concerned with what a Grand Piano does to it.

You don’t sell a $50,000 amp to a musician, you sell it to someone with too much money.

That is a very good point about believing what we are told about the massive over engineering.

I've not been able to find any internal photos of the Rowland 925.

Here's a couple of photos of the inside of the Rowland 725, that retailed for 35,500 Euros for a stereo pair.



Is the Rowland 725 really over-engineered when compared to - for example - NVA M600's? Or Urei 6290's?
Or is there some Wizard of Ozery going on here? The amplifier behind the curtain, and the price tag?

[Daniel Quinn]

As some one who as now built over 20 different amp boards with different transformer va and different capacitor values in the past 18 months.

I'm a firm believer in the less components in the signal path is better. Also a large simple power supply is optimum. But I'm sceptical on the actual circuit design effecting sound.

Class d as a plethora of components and a shit power supply. Make of that what you will .

As for world class amps ,im coming round to the belief they all sound the same until you add components to ruin or flavour the sound.