Speakers again (groan) -what's it all about

[karatestu]

When appreciating speakers (which have the biggest influence on the sound in the hifi chain) we all look for different things. Sometimes people can actually agree with several other people

There are too many different designs to mention here. In my diy adventures I have had to pay attention to diferent aspects to try and arrive at my goal usi g just my brain and ears. There are many diferent considerations and all speakers are a compromise and so in effect giving more importance to certain aspects over others.

What is most important to you ?

I want a non fatiguing vibrant, living & breathing performance which is the same in all parts of the room and has plenty of deep bass without upsetting any of the evil room modes that occur in our small rooms. I also want low distortion, the highest amount of detail that can be obtained without compromising other things I find important and an effortless quality that can only be obtained from large drivers.

Asking too much ? I don't think so. I have gone down the semi omni route for obvious reasons. Big 12" bass drivers for scale and effortlessness and multiple identical drivers to share the work, lower distortion, increase speaker sensitivity and produce a more omni directional experience.

[Latteman]

I like a speaker to portray emotion wether it’s a live AC/DC or studio Kate Bush album. I too like bass it needs to be real and not forced- there when it’s supposed to be- that takes many years to realise this.
I like the background to be audible so I can hear it all
I have returned to semi omni recently and plan a new build of semi omni to use my 8” drivers, I too like multiple tweeters and plan to squeeze some in

[Lindsayt]

When doing speaker / system bake-offs, I often find myself mentally plotting volume on the Y axis against time on the X axis.
With non-compressed recordings, you'll get a series of transients that would give a series of Eiffel tower shaped spikes on the sort of system that I like. The sort of system that I hate would have a series of Great Pyramid shaped mounds.

For a few years if I've been wondering if some people are more sensitive to transient compression than others?
I hate it. Others don't seem to mind it.

There are other important factors: clarity / transparency. Does it sound like actual instruments or vocalists being played or singing there in the room? Or does it sound like an electro-mechanical recreation of the instruments or singer?

And does the system filter out certain instruments?
Too many tiny speakers have a way of filtering our bass guitars and bass drums.
I hate this type of uninvolving presentation. Bass drums are the most important drum in the drumkit. It's this drum that drives along the music.

And then there's the price. And whether it will depreciate.

There's certainly plenty of speakers that others seem to love that I don't get on with.
For example Shahinians that some people love. I find them too difuse.

[karatestu]

I like a speaker to portray emotion wether it’s a live AC/DC or studio Kate Bush album. I too like bass it needs to be real and not forced- there when it’s supposed to be- that takes many years to realise this.
I like the background to be audible so I can hear it all
I have returned to semi omni recently and plan a new build of semi omni to use my 8” drivers, I too like multiple tweeters and plan to squeeze some in

Hi Peter. Another tweeter breeding project I often look at my 12" drivers and the size of my listening room. What the hell am I trying to do squeezing these drivers and the large cabinet they require in tò an average sized UK living room. But then I listen to them and remember why.

[karatestu]

When doing speaker / system bake-offs, I often find myself mentally plotting volume on the Y axis against time on the X axis.
With non-compressed recordings, you'll get a series of transients that would give a series of Eiffel tower shaped spikes on the sort of system that I like. The sort of system that I hate would have a series of Great Pyramid shaped mounds.

For a few years if I've been wondering if some people are more sensitive to transient compression than others?
I hate it. Others don't seem to mind it.

There are other important factors: clarity / transparency. Does it sound like actual instruments or vocalists being played or singing there in the room? Or does it sound like an electro-mechanical recreation of the instruments or singer?

And does the system filter out certain instruments?
Too many tiny speakers have a way of filtering our bass guitars and bass drums.
I hate this type of uninvolving presentation. Bass drums are the most important drum in the drumkit. It's this drum that drives along the music.

And then there's the price. And whether it will depreciate.

There's certainly plenty of speakers that others seem to love that I don't get on with.
For example Shahinians that some people love. I find them too difuse.

Thanks Lindsay. I now know exactly where you are coming from. Transient speed is one parameter that I need to pay more attention to. It is important to me but I don't do bake offs and have heard very few speakers in my life compared to others like you. What I do know is my current diy speakers are the best I have heard in that respect but what I can compare them to is limited. Going isobaric with the twelve inchers seemed to improve speed in the bass.

Tiny speakers are not acceptable to me anymore either. I do have some in my kitchen diner but that is out of necessity. They are almost fully built into a soffit in the corners of the room slightly above head height when stood up. There is plenty of bass even though I blocked the ports and baffle step is not a problem. Room gain does the rest but still not a patch on my other speakers. They are indeed a bass filter and you are quite correct about the kick drum being the most important part of a drum kit. I like to be able to feel it as well as hear it and that can only be done with large cone areas with large enclosures.

I have never heard Shahinian speakers but like to think that I would do. When I was messing around with tweeter orientation I found that I much preferred a single tweeter firing at me than up firing at what ever angle. Adding multiple tweeters firing in all directions was a revelation for me though as long as one of them is firing to the front. With a first order single capacitor high pass filter I think it is hugely beneficial to lowering distortion as the work is spread out between four or five tweeters. I was truly shocked and the omni effect was improved also as regards the higher frequencies which the up firing 12" and 5" drivers do not cover.

[CN211276]

Short and simple. As faithful to the source as possible, in terms of adding and taking away. Also the need to work close to a wall.

[savvypaul]

For punk / rock / indie / electronic etc - something that stops and starts "without hesitation, repetition or deviation"

For country and folk - something that can capture the strike of an acoustic guitar, the clack of an accordion key, the twang of a steel, the amount of marijuana that Willie Nelson has consumed

For classical - something that captures the natural acoustic of the concert hall and doesn't wave a white flag when Shostakovich gets his freak on

Something that does the above without needing to bring my neighbours to the front door holding torches.

I don't want a speaker to impress me. I want to forget it's there.

[Twistedheat02]

I like to hear the micro dynamics in the mid range.

I like to feel the bass through the floor.

I like to feel the energy within a recording driving a song along.

I like to feel the emotions in the music

[Bencat57]

Well I have two main systems in the house that I listen to the one downstairs is in the second lounge which we call the music room . Now at this present time the system consists of an Allo Digi + streamer / Theta Data Basic CD Transport feeding a MiniDSP DDRC 22D DSP unit which sends the digitaly revised signal to a Denafrips Pro 8 MK 1 DAC which is then fed via balanced output to an XTZ A100 power amp with the remote on the DDRC 22D acting as volume control in to a pair of Quad ESL57 . The speakers here are something I spent years not buying because I was told a number things they had issues with and that my room was not big enough . Well after a revealing vist to an enthusiast in Kendal I found that to be rubbish and bought a pair.After spending quite a bit on getting them over hauled by AQuadthing they were finally working . I then spent a very difficult twelve months were various items (DAC,s , Amps , DSP units) all failed and the system became very dysfuntional .

Happily in the last four or five weeks repaired items and patience in set up have rewarded me with the best music i have ever heard in my house to date . Quad speakers are really different to any box speaker I have heard in paticular for vocals. At first I thought there was somehting wrong as vocals I thought I knew well sounded different . I then tested a recording of my wife singing and realised for the first time that the Quads were accurate and sounded exactly as my wifes voice does . The issue was years of hearing box speakers and not realising that they were adding colourations . Once I got this things then took off . As speakers they image very well but sort of in a wall across the room not streching back . Bass is never going to be Sound System levels but it is in keeping with the whole sound and is textured and detailed . Added to this i can listen for very extended periods and just want to put something else on not turn the system off . So for me right now these are the perfect speaker and I will be leaving things as they are for a number of minths and just listen to and buy music .

[Latteman]

I think having to be close to a wall suits a closed box speaker with no baffle step correction very well (e.g NVA Cubes) As far as been faithful to the source is concerned I think this can mean different things to different people. The flat frequency response crew with their lovely flat table top graphs would argue it is this. Others are more concerned with the effects of phase and not having the music sounding like it has been sat on.

I never thought box shape was that important until I started messing around with diy speakers. I have read that some people don't like floor standing speakers because that means the bass or mid bass driver has a elongated shape for the back wave = bad resonances much like a badly designed transmission line.

When drivers get larger and have higher VAS (higher cabinet volume requirements) it becomes harder to make cubes as they become very large and ugly. Just look at my diy bass bins at 50cm3 - this is not aesthetically pleasing and just not going to happen with most people.

There are ways of dealing with long rectangular enclosures and this may involve all sorts of things like stuffing, holy enclosure dividers (doubles as bracing) the Hartley boffle etc etc. But this is all moving away from the principles laid down by The Doc which we all try to follow. I have strayed from the path a little but only to try and keep the cabinet volumes to a realistic size.

The cubix principles (isobaric) work very well but what could also be done is having two cubic enclosures stacked on top of each other - one with an up firing mid bass and one with a down firing mid bass on short open stands. Several tweeters firing in different directions and Robert's yer uncle. This would have the work shared out between two mid bass drivers and say four tweeters = lower distortion all round, higher sensitivity and no baffle step losses (allegedly).

Isobaric is not an efficient way to use more than one bass driver. The Spl is not increased and if you wire them in parallel (for say a 4 ohm load compared to 8 ohms of a single driver) then you are back to where you started with only one bass driver. Wire them in series and you are worse off in efficiency terms than using one driver. There are advantages to isobaric however, which in my opinion make it worthwhile especially if you are using cheap drivers.