PMC

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Fretless
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Re: PMC

Unread post by Fretless »

I could be rude here but my experience with Cubes is precisely the opposite of what has been said above.

Life, dynamics, extension, imaging and separation are better than any other speakers I have owned. Cubes punch way above their price range and provide an aural 'field' that standard designs cannot even approach.
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karatestu (Thu Jul 09, 2020 5:44 am) • savvypaul (Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:01 am) • CN211276 (Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:05 am)

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Re: PMC

Unread post by antonio66 »

I use Cube 3's with NVA A60 amp, and in no way would I call them flat and uninspiring. I agree with Fretless' description, and I have some pretty good references to compare to since my previous speakers were Shahinian Obelisks and most of my listening nowadays is through my brothers Estelon XB's.
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savvypaul (Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:01 am)

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Re: PMC

Unread post by karatestu »

I think Mr Fisher may be an imaging freak if he likes comments on lack of instrument separation? Well, it will be no surprise that my experience with my diy efforts using identical doped drivers to RD is very different to Mr Fisher's experience but at the same time I realise everybody is entitled to their opinion as long as it is honest and not just trotted out when somebody / something they dislike or don't understand receives praise.. But then I have never heard a NVA speaker in my life and certainly don't go to shows (I don't have a fat belly and a beard big enough for birds to nest in). I now don't trust any body's point of view - only my own ears and my own experiences.

We are all different in what we value in a speaker and all have a point of view. They (speakers) are all a compromise. I used to hang off the every word of gobby so called internet arm chair experts who have such a high opinion of themselves and their view of what makes a "competently designed speaker". RD opened my eyes to the thick soup of internet bullshit, helped me trust my own ears and point of view without dissing anything that does not fit in with my little world (well, he didn't teach me the last bit :lol: ).

So Mr Fisher I respect your right to your opinion but just as you disagree with our views here my diy experiments lead me to disagree with yours. It's not a biggy though, we should not feel the need to fall out about such trivialities of life. One thing that some say about doped drivers is that they lose theit immediacy, become slow and the cone / dope interface leads to distortion. They don't sound any slower or lacking in life than other drivers I have heard although obviously less efficient and I haven't heard that many drivers. I wouldn't carry on with my project if I did not hear the merit in it.

Some people just don't get semi omni speakers. That's fine with me but I do.. My world has not fallen apart and I do not care if the only people to hear my efforts are myself, my close family and friends. I will remain very happy :grin:

As you were.
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Latteman (Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:57 am) • savvypaul (Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:01 am)
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Re: PMC

Unread post by savvypaul »

TroutFisher wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:43 am I really can’t believe what I am reading. Before Richard died, I attended two shows he demonstrated at and frankly, to me, his sound using his cubes was really flat and completely uninspiring with no instrument/voice separation, a lack of bass extension absolutely nothing dynamic whatsoever. I really don’t understand posts suggesting things or sound otherwise. To me his speakers sounded like something dull from the 60/70’s. My speakers are now 30 years old, but they are way more dynamic and life like. When the music plays, they make you sit up and consume.

Undoubtably this may be a preference thing, but I’ll always question the preferences of those who advocate (assuming they really are using their ears) speakers designed by RD. Sorry, IMHO, NVA Cubes Are absolute rubbish compared with properly designed speakers. Now, there are many speakers out there which are not properly designed. That is probably the problem. My speakers are DIY and address many of the issues commercial products can‘t deal with. Never the less, to my ears, there are plenty better commercial speaker products than Cubes. Sorry, Paul, imho, you are promoting a fraud.
It's fine not to like NVA Cubes. It would be a boring world if we all liked exactly the same things. It's even fine to post your dislike about them here, on the NVA manufacturer forum (try posting those sort of comments about Harbeths, AVI, PMCs on their forums or blogs and I suspect a heavyweight '4th order moderator' will very soon hit you on the head :lol: ). I don't recognise your observations about the Cubes but I have no problem with you posting them here.

What is not fine, however, is to accuse me of fraud. Apart from being absurd, it is potentially libellous. You must correct that if you want to carry on posting here.

EDIT - apology received (and accepted).
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Latteman (Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:50 pm) • antonio66 (Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:55 pm)
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Re: PMC

Unread post by CN211276 »

Fretless wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:00 am I could be rude here but my experience with Cubes is precisely the opposite of what has been said above.

Life, dynamics, extension, imaging and separation are better than any other speakers I have owned. Cubes punch way above their price range and provide an aural 'field' that standard designs cannot even approach.
I could not put it better. I have Cube 1s and Cubettes and have owned Cube 3s. I could never go back to point and squirt. It has been posted here before about Cubes not sounding good at shows and this I can well understand because rooms are not typical and, for example, can have ceilings which are too high. All that matters is how a speaker works in a typical listening room. Cubes, appropriately positioned, are designed for this and opinions on how they sound at a show are of little value.
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savvypaul (Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:25 am)
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Re: PMC

Unread post by Docfoster »

TroutFisher wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:43 am I attended two shows he demonstrated at and frankly, to me, his sound using his cubes was really flat and completely uninspiring with no instrument/voice separation, a lack of bass extension absolutely nothing dynamic whatsoever.
My Cube 1s sounded much better in my home than they did at the show where I first heard them. In fact, based on how they sounded at the show I bought them only because of the no-quibble return policy. In my lounge I found them very satisfying for a number of years. I recall their sound being very adjustable via positioning. I speculated at the time that possibly having the bass driver on the top plate meant one could adjust the distance from 2 proximal perpendicular boundaries (the 2 walls behind and to the side), whereas in a front firing driver the distance from one of the proximal perpendicular boundaries (the floor) is harder to adjust (I'm yet to see a height adjustable speaker stand... ;-) ). Personally, I found that I liked the Cube 1s pulled away from rear and side walls (a couple of feet iirc) as, to my ears, this aided the separation that I crave. On the 2 occasions I saw Richard setting them up, he preferred them pushed far closer to the rear wall than was desirable for me.

Incidentally I also remember hearing some PMC speakers at a Bristol show many years ago and thinking they were very good. Can't remember what it was. Quite a big 3 way. Dome midrange.
Maybe I'm too easily pleased. :-D

Like you, I now make my own speakers. A bit like tweaking speaker positioning turned up to the max!
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savvypaul (Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:22 am)
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Re: PMC

Unread post by BillyBones »

"properly designed" speakers :shock:
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savvypaul (Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:56 pm)

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Re: PMC

Unread post by 29mile »

CN211276 wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:21 am All that matters is how a speaker works in a typical listening room. Cubes, appropriately positioned, are designed for this and opinions on how they sound at a show are of little value.
Spot on. Cubes need to be heard in the environment they were designed for ie home environments. I too have heard Cubes at a show and left duly unimpressed. However my Cube 3's at home are excellent and sing in our living room.
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savvypaul (Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:09 pm)

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Re: PMC

Unread post by Lindsayt »

TroutFisher wrote: Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:43 am I really can’t believe what I am reading. Before Richard died, I attended two shows he demonstrated at and frankly, to me, his sound using his cubes was really flat and completely uninspiring with no instrument/voice separation, a lack of bass extension absolutely nothing dynamic whatsoever. I really don’t understand posts suggesting things or sound otherwise. To me his speakers sounded like something dull from the 60/70’s. My speakers are now 30 years old, but they are way more dynamic and life like. When the music plays, they make you sit up and consume.

Undoubtably this may be a preference thing, but I’ll always question the preferences of those who advocate (assuming they really are using their ears) speakers designed by RD. Sorry, IMHO, NVA Cubes Are absolute rubbish compared with properly designed speakers. Now, there are many speakers out there which are not properly designed. That is probably the problem. My speakers are DIY and address many of the issues commercial products can‘t deal with. Never the less, to my ears, there are plenty better commercial speaker products than Cubes. Sorry, Paul, imho, you are promoting a fraud.
Listen to them in a bake off situation.

Same room as a reference pair of speakers - eg your speakers. Playing the same recording at the same volume. 1 after the other.
With some attention to reasonable placement of the speaker for best sound in that room.

Treat the sound of any system you hear at a hi-fi show as highly provisional.

There are so many variables at a hi-fi show.
Choice of recording. Volume. Acoustics. Noise leakage. Listening position. Ringing ears from being in a very loud room 1 minute earlier. etc etc etc
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savvypaul (Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:10 pm)

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Re: PMC

Unread post by karatestu »

Some unfavourable comments about PMC on another forum
Sure. twenty.21 here. Hate myself for buying them. You've got the bogus transmission line, and not just because it's too short to be of any use except as some sort of extreme cabinet bracing, but the designers apparently don't know their asses from their elbows seeing as how it behaves like a port. But it's most everything, really: From the cheap components to the gaudy amarone finish. Those PMC guys must drink a lot of expensive whiskey thanks to their prices, because scotch casks is apparently where that color comes from.

But what really chafes my taint is the massive collusion. I bought into this scam because every review had high praise for the PMC twenty and twenty5 speakers. Hell, finding a review that isn't at least 4 stars, and most usually 5, is a grail hunt. And their talk about balance of drivers and musicality, timing and 'sounding right'. It never ended. Glowing review after glowing review. But eventually even the most successful conspiracies come to an end. Through all the lying about timelines and the amateur-hour design of the crossover points ... you just can't fool the frequency graphs and plots or those pesky forumites and their lugubrious theoretical musings. As they say, you can run but you can't hide. Wish I knew this sooner. Guess I'm stuck with them since I doubt I could give them away now. So, lesson learned. All those audio reviewers? Liars. Flat-out liars. Except about cables --that you can bank.
Fully agree with your appraisal of PMC and their scam operation. I have extensively written on this subject elsewhere and won't dive once again into the details. Suffice it to say that they have literally EVERYTHING wrong except BS propaganda marketing and complicit relationships with reviewers and media that happily take their advertising payments. As for the latest 25i line, they are literally, figuratively, unequivocally, undeniably and most assuredly the most massive industrial failure the loudspeaker industry has ever witnessed. These people are laughing all the way to the bank. PMC is a scam, let there be no doubt whatsoever
There isn't any shame in being totally unfamiliar with PMC in general or the specific subject here in particular. No need to fret over it...If you were to DYOR you'd find that those who "like and value" PMC speakers are primarily hifi magazine and internet reviewers. You may be able to discover, hidden here or there, some fanboy customer who likes or even loves PMC speakers. There are also people who are members of the Church of Satan so different strokes for different folks. The fact of the matter is that PMC is a marketing company surfing on a weird hippie-guru ex-Beeb vibe to fool unsuspecting budding audiophiles into believing their marketing hype. If you believe that Oliver's "F1 experience" in designing the laminair vent (LOL) is master stroke of engineering genius that actually makes one half an iota of difference, then I stand corrected. No use mentioning that their revolutionary TL technology is a pale travesty of AR Bailey's work from the 1960s and which, as applied by PMC simply does not function correctly or adhere to known, tried and true mathematical theory of transmission line parameters. Also useless to recall to one's attention that they have one, only one "acoustic engineer" (the young and inexperienced Ed Sheeran look alike...) who "designs" the crossovers which are poorly implemented using cheapo capacitors and inductors. Frankly, a PMC speaker fan is either an absolute beginner with cloth ears who's never heard an actual loudspeaker or someone who has a friend who works in Biggleswade. In all fairness, everyone is free to like or dislike whomever and whatever they want. The reason I dislike PMC is because their products are objectively overrated, overpriced and underwhelming and I sincerely believe them to be eminently dishonest. If you're curious, read the Audio Science Review's analysis and measurements of the 20.21. It's an absolute disgrace. Even Stereophile thinks very little of PMC speakers as evident in their review.
Knickers in a twist ? Sourgrapes ? The truth ? Who cares ?
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CycleCoach (Sat May 22, 2021 10:12 am) • CN211276 (Sat May 22, 2021 12:18 pm)
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