Cubbets and sub

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Simon Hickie
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Re: Cubbets and sub

Unread post by Simon Hickie »

In my view, there's a difference between 'bass extension' and 'scale'. An active sub probably would add something in the extension department, but may not do much for scale. I'm returning to listening to more full bore orchestral music and even my modded Allison 6 speakers (think Cube 1, but with a better and more extended 8 inch bass/mid driver) struggle, even though they are fine with, for example, 70s prog.

It is for this reason that I'm veering towards the view that 'there's no replacement for displacement', to borrow a motoring term. In other words, a big driver for the bottom 3-4 octaves is where I am heading. Some examples: double bass fundamentals range from 41hz to about 350hz; middle C on a piano is a mere 262hz; tympani start at 60hz etc. etc. In other words, there's a lot going on in those bottom few octaves and one is asking an awful lot of a 5 inch bass/mid to convey any sense of scale which involves moving a lot of air.

How this is going to help you, I don't actually know! One possibility might be a sealed box bass driver housing say a 12 inch driver covering up to the 200hz region, with the cubettes perched on top for mid/treble duties. This does, however, mean careful choice of a bass driver that would work appropriately. It might also lead one into whether & how to electrically roll off the bass driver. It would need a pretty large second order electrical roll off (9mH inductor, 68uF cap) to roll it off from 200hz and this may well be anathema to many.

Ordinaryman
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Re: Cubbets and sub

Unread post by Ordinaryman »

Marlin, thanks for your kind offer of the rel obviously I would be more than happy to arrange collection at a time and date that fits in with you :grin: should I pm you? as for compatibility issues I'm not using nva amps just ls1,ssc and cubetts. Little rega Mira being used at the moment. Though I do hope to remedy that when nva are back up and running again. As I said not looking for ground shaking bass just a fuller sound, if that's the right word? Most of my listening is at low to medium levels, rarely past 12 o clock on the rega in a smallish room. Thanks everyone for your input.

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Re: Cubbets and sub

Unread post by _D_S_J_R_ »

As I understand it, you shouldn't connect any sub to NVA power amps, but since most subs are active with their own amps, it may be possible to connect to a spare set of preamp outputs as discussed before if you have a P50 or P90. My own take on subs used to be that many rolled out up-top too gently, some having output in the midrange, albeit down in level. We used to like the cheaper but ugly M&K subs, which never messed with the music unlike some cheaper Rels, which were designed to thump and boom along tunelessly for film special effects, but with 'AV' kind of dying off a bit, I don't know what's available that's any good.

My take after years in this industry has always been to get a bigger main pair of speakers if you want more bass realism. If the 'Cube Way' is for you, then bigger ones will do so much more for you imo - and I've heard them all now at various times in the same room on much the same gear.
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Re: Cubbets and sub

Unread post by Ithilstone »

There is only one safe way of mixing sub and NVA and it is connect active sub to a spare set of pre-amp outputs if you have a P50 or P90.
But as DSJR said - bigger cubes or bigger DIY cubes are better solution
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Re: Cubbets and sub

Unread post by TheMarlin »

Ordinaryman wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:17 pm Marlin, thanks for your kind offer of the rel obviously I would be more than happy to arrange collection at a time and date that fits in with you :grin: should I pm you? as for compatibility issues I'm not using nva amps just ls1,ssc and cubetts. Little rega Mira being used at the moment. Though I do hope to remedy that when nva are back up and running again. As I said not looking for ground shaking bass just a fuller sound, if that's the right word? Most of my listening is at low to medium levels, rarely past 12 o clock on the rega in a smallish room. Thanks everyone for your input.
Yes, PM met for collection details. I’ve actually got two subs gatherings dust, forget the brand of the second one. Never even fired it up. Got it to go with the NVA before talking to Richard.
As it happens, my Tannoy Monitors work extremely well in my listening room, and deliver fantastic bass in spades, so not missing the sub. Lesson learned.
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Re: Cubbets and sub

Unread post by Ordinaryman »

Pm sent.

Ordinaryman
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Re: Cubbets and sub

Unread post by Ordinaryman »

Thanks to the generosity of "themarlin" I should soon have a sub and be able to "scratch this itch". To clarify i do have other (p&s) speakers that provide adequate bass in my room dynaudio's and arcam speaker, both great at what they do, but at a cost in sound Whilst the dynaudio's possible equal the cubbets in midrange and treble they are just not as musical or "smooth" the little arcams as they always do are " musical " but lack in definition, soothing as they are imo. The problem is these little black cubes are just seductive!
Yes I could just go back to either of the others and be happy, if I haven't heard these little cubes! So it will be interesting to see if with a little bit of extra bass they could "fill out".

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Re: Cubbets and sub

Unread post by Docfoster »

A bit late to the party on this one.
I'd agree that big main speakers are the optimal solution for bass weight and depth.
That said, one may find that at times one gains more in bass heft with a sub than one loses in overall "musicality". Depending on the existing system , and personal tastes.
I once bought an old bass cab with an 18 inch speaker in it and simply fitted a sub woofer plate amp to the back. It was obviously enormous, and I was never entirely satisfied with how well it disappeared physically or sonically (despite much judicial use of roll-off, phase shift and level controls, and a pretty throw to conceal it against the wall), but I wouldn't have been without it on occasion. I was using it with main speakers with 12 inch woofers and the sub offered the option of plunging deeper than they went. It was very smile inducing when, as a bass line descended and I subconsciously expected the level of the bass to decrease somewhat, its presence was held. A little texture was lost (e.g. some small amount of the "woodiness" of a double bass), but once in place, it was impossible for me to choose to be without the sub when listening to dub or ambient electronic music.

I found that for me, the trade-off between bass weight on one hand and more subtle musical details on the other, swung things away from the sub once I started mucking around with a pair of Goodmans Magisters (15 inch woofers) as my main stereo speakers.
But main stereo speakers with 15 or 18 inch drivers are huge, washing-machine size lumps. Not fit for everyone's living room.
So I say try out the sub, especially as it's free. It's not like you've got to have it on all the time; obviously one can turn off the sub whenever the music, ears or the neighbours demand.

On the subject of line v speaker level input to a sub, I would imagine that where there's the choice, using a feed from a volume controlled line-level (e.g. "pre-out") would be the way to go anyway. Iirc NVA preamps have 3 of these(...?)
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Re: Cubbets and sub

Unread post by Ordinaryman »

Well having picked up "the sub" ( rel strata ) from themarlin last Thursday I have had a few days in which to get it dialled in,think I'm getting there? Running it via the line in/out connections at the moment, though I have ordered a 3mtr set of rca connections as the rega has a pre out so will also give that a try. Has it made a difference? Well yes. Obviously it allways was going to but after a bit of adjustment i think I've got it were it suits me,my room and cubbets and I really quite like it! Although at no point am I aware of its presence the little cubetts just sound "right" now, with a much improved presence to the whole sound, and that fullness I was hoping for. I don't think that with my system or jaded ears there is any loss of quality? And I am really happy with the results :grin:
So for me it really was an itch worth scratching, once again many thanks to you all for your advice and particularly the marlin for his generosity. Now it's time to get back to listening :dance: and ponder the reawakening of nva and amplifiers.....

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Re: Cubbets and sub

Unread post by karatestu »

I think Doc's problem with them was probably down to timing. That was his main criteria for assessing things (and pitch accuracy). Also you have introduced a low pass filter of unknown design and an amplifier of unkown ability (probably has zobel, output inductor, input capacitor).

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