Hi-Fi Honesty

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Vinyl-ant
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Re: Hi-Fi Honesty

Unread post by Vinyl-ant » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:07 pm

I have 2 lencos, the 301, my jvc QL-Y5F (not plastic) and jbe dd, if someone wants to bring a bouncy belt drive deck (i don't have one) round to actually see what the differences are, rather than just believe the hyperbole around them all, be my guest. Personally I just like turntables. I know what I like.
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_D_S_J_R_
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Re: Hi-Fi Honesty

Unread post by _D_S_J_R_ » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:13 pm

I'm being pompous, but must disagree with you on the idler decks as I can't stand the background 'drone' I hear in so many compared to the direct drives I've owned, but it's just not worth the energy to do so any more. Apologies for being pompous, but I cannot share my experiences with you only by memories and words, which are as nothing compared with sitting you all down and demonstrating what I'm trying to say. I'll get out now before it deteriorates any further.

By the way, It was an ex-BBC 301 in a modern plinth design that showed the slight 'wow' in an LP12 which I'd never really noticed before. The 301 held pitch like 'digital' does, but this 301 wasn't quiet, or neutral, even if it did funk the tunes up so well...

Daniel Quinn
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Re: Hi-Fi Honesty

Unread post by Daniel Quinn » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:53 pm

Dave trouble with your anecdotes from the 70/80/90s
Is they are never filtered through the light of now.

Personally, everything I thought I knew yesterday is subject to revision today.

O yeah. I own an idler.

TroutFisher
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Re: Hi-Fi Honesty

Unread post by TroutFisher » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:36 pm

Well, anecdotes from the past can be useful, but regarding idler and direct drive (in the day) they are not helpful because they only relate to how things were in the old days with crappy plinths. It needs to be acknowledged that Garrard and Lenco turntables have had a renaissance because DIYer’s have discovered that sinking the energy these TT’s produce into dense plinths be they slate or wood construction incorporating a CLD approach really does work to stop rumble, wow and flutter. A shame really because this knowledge discovered earlier might have saved these Marques.

After I discovered what a 401 could do in a fat slab of Mahogany, I moved onto slate. I sold the Michell Gyrorb. Although I had no concern about the sound reproduced from my 401, eventually I got fed up with the clunky mechanical mechanism of the 401 and the need to be constantly attentive to the speed control. I appreciated I could buy a improved power supply from LongDog Audio but it didn’t delete clunky. Eventually, buying from abroad, I invested in a Denon DP-80. I sunk this into a dense CLD wood based plinth and have not looked back. Speed is absolutely constant and bang on regardless of stylus load.
Yep, at least 40 years old but for sure, the best Vinyl playback I’ve ever had. All my mates have gone the same way, buying up SP10’s and other high end Japanese direct drive TT’s from the 70/80’s. I would never again consider a basic belt drive, short of the Thorens TD-124 which sorry folks is actually belt driven albeit in a totally different way to an LP12 and most other TT’s out there.

I’ve learnt a hell of a lot on my 50 year journey. Seems bizarre that after that time I am now totally contentented with a 40 year old Japanese deck. What a nonsense this industry is.

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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Re: Hi-Fi Honesty

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:39 am

I am a recent mover the other way. It is very much an if and but, but for me I am into bass weight and tightness and timing, for me I find the rhythm sections of all types of music, orchestral through to groups is the foundation of music that everything else hangs off, be it Mozart or the astonishingly tight rhythm section of the Wailers. Any belt drive kills it, cord drives retain it quite well but I have little experience of them, a good DD retains it better, but for me a good rim drive is the tightest without losing anything else in the music in the process. I may go back the other way especially if I could afford an Exclusive P2.

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Lindsayt
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Re: Hi-Fi Honesty

Unread post by Lindsayt » Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:47 am

In the early 1980's I can remeber reading plenty of magazine articles on how to get the best from the LP12. Going into minute detail.

Sitting it on a Sound Organisation table. Checking which way round the belt gave the most teardrop shape and using that. And then testing which direction of rotation of the belt sounded better. Not touching the belt with unwashed hands. Tightening up all the bolts beyond their elastic limits. Taking the lid off when listening. Removing the baseboard.

I don't remember reading any discussing how to get the best out of a Garrard or a Japanese direct drive.

Funny that.

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CN211276
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Re: Hi-Fi Honesty

Unread post by CN211276 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:58 am

I remember the magazines of the early 80s maintaining that a quality TT had to be a belt drive suspended subchasi design. The reasoning was that a belt was required to eliminate vibration from the motor and springs were required for isolation from acoustic feed back. I suspect the Glasgow mafia was behind this.
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_D_S_J_R_
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Re: Hi-Fi Honesty

Unread post by _D_S_J_R_ » Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:26 am

I think you'll find Acoustic Research were behind this statement originally and then Thorens! The LP12 is a blue printed TD150

Back in 1983, Linn were streets ahead of many other domestic audio companies as they had real live master grade recordings to use as a reference. My only sadness is that they took so long to sort the LP12 out (at sadly huge costs to the owners) and lift it hugely out of the fruitbox mire it was in. In 1987, I commented after a dem at Glasgow that vinyl was crap compared to the master source. They AGREED that vinyl was crap, but still felt their crap was better than everyone elses crap, but it was still crap. Shook me to the core that did and it wasn't until a year later that I was able to hear some top quality alternatives. By this time, owners of top direct drives were coming in for stylus and cartridge upgrades. Better sited on the specialist tables and wall shelves now available, these decks began to show their true superb colours imo.

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karatestu
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Re: Hi-Fi Honesty

Unread post by karatestu » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:25 pm

Dr Bunsen Honeydew wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:39 am

I find the rhythm sections of all types of music, orchestral through to groups is the foundation of music that everything else hangs off, be it Mozart or the astonishingly tight rhythm section of the Wailers.
I have been trying to tell people that for a long time. Guitarists and singers are the worst for ignoring the importance of rhythm - at their peril. The bass player i was in countless bands with used to say we were there to make the other musicians look good. :lol:
Naim, Linn & Harbeth fanboy

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Lindsayt
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Re: Hi-Fi Honesty

Unread post by Lindsayt » Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:56 pm

I cannot agree with this: "Back in 1983, Linn were streets ahead of many other domestic audio companies as they had real live master grade recordings to use as a reference."

Linn could have had the London Symphony Orchestra playing live in their factory and they still would have produced the mediocrity that they did.

They and the UK hi-fi press were marketing Linn as producing the best turntable and speakers in the world in 1983. With the hindsight that we have now, Pioneer, Sony, Kenwood, JBL, Altec had them soundly beaten in those departments. Maybe they had access to record master tapes, maybe they didn't?

Having competent engineers that are given free reign is more important to the sound quality of the goods produced by any company than whether they are able to listen to master tapes or not.

The statement that I quoted from DSJR is typical of the Linn marketing rhetoric of the time, where they took every feature of their products and company, good bad or indifferent, and turned it into a reason why they were the best and everyone else was worse.

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