Balanced v Unbalanced

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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Balanced v Unbalanced

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:49 pm

I am bringing a link here from Wigwam as I have posted a lot on it and I don't want to repeat it here.

https://hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/1303 ... nbalanced/

Basically as many times in the past we are being faced with a marketing con job. If my basic principle is agreed with then any unnecessary components in the signal path *must* degrade the music then it is obvious this is a con job to find reasons to pursued you to buy new gear.

There are companies using shows, mostly for headphones, that have created units with both balanced and unbalanced sources to show balanced is better. Simply it does not, one of the easiest things in the world is to make the thing you want to lose worse, and that is what is being done YOU ARE BEING CONNED!

I will bake off a NVA unbalanced headphone amp against ANY balanced one and prove my point with pleasure.

Over the years you have fallen for many cons, this industry has been full of them since the 1970's, from BBC design through the flat earth to now balanced and WAF - do not fall for it.

keepitsimplestupid
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Re: Balanced v Unbalanced

Unread post by keepitsimplestupid » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:49 pm

AIUI balanced headphone amps aren't, they're bridged.

If using long cable runs then the common mode rejection from a balanced interface can be beneficial. but how many of us run 5m interconnects, not me.

My own power amps are balanced throughout and also very, very low noise. There's no more components in each signal path for a balanced set up, there's just two complete signal paths. I agree with you though, going from a single ended to balanced and then back to single ended at the output of an amp is a waste of time and resource.

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Re: Balanced v Unbalanced

Unread post by _D_S_J_R_ » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:06 pm

The Krell power amp I ran for a while (and now owned by Macca), is fully balanced right from the XLR input socket and making it usable for standard RCA cables means tying one of the input sides to ground, which according to the manufacturers, degrades it's sonic potential. In THIS case, due to the particular design, it seems to make sense to use a properly balanced preamp - and there are some which are again designed with balanced mirror-image circuitry from input to output - Levinson did at least one model and I suspect the better krell models were also designed this way. I suspect it's expensive to do, but these are premium priced products, so cost isn't an issue here as long as the design works as intended.

I have to temper that by saying I've happily used 10m long single-ended connections between active preamps (Linn and AVI in particular) to a remote RCA socket equipped power amp (Quad 405-2 freshly updated and numerous AVI power amps) with absolutely NO hum or nasties as long as the interconnect wires were low capacitance and well screened.

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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Re: Balanced v Unbalanced

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:25 pm

FFS why do I have to say it over and over and over and over an......................again. IT IS NOT BALANCED - THE SAME AS IT IS NOT CLASS A - IT IS MARKETING.

If the amp is used in a PA rig with long cables then yes there is a benefit, but ONLY because of cable length. With NORMAL hifi length cables i.e. under 10m it will SOUND WORSE!!!

Why, because the amp is not balanced, the amp is single ended, with either a balun (balancing transformer) or sum and diff active circuit run around an op-amp BOTH MAKE THE MUSIC WORSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Balanced v Unbalanced

Unread post by _D_S_J_R_ » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:10 pm

I can't find the schematic for the S version over the totally different original, so can't argue with evidence.

Scroll down and you can see all the 'versions' of the Krell 50 model number. The one I had (KSA50S) is two thirds down and the number of components inside scared the bejesus out of me. http://www.vintagehificlub.com/quick-in ... 0w-classe/

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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Re: Balanced v Unbalanced

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:21 pm

IT IS NOT BALANCED it is *MADE* to be balanced by adding extra circuitry, same as EVERY other application of this nonsense. It cannot be done with the same components or less components it is an ADDITION - DOES THIS FINALLY SINK IN so I don't have to say it over and over and over and over.............................again.

If you have a hi-fi room any smaller than a large Church Hall there is no advantage there is only musical damage. On top of which people think XLR is better because it is Pro stuff, again no it is worse due to connections and size, but is perfect for Pro work as it is strong and robust (what they need, not us). BUT yet again ignorance - used by Pro market so it must be better - WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Balanced v Unbalanced

Unread post by _D_S_J_R_ » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:28 pm

OK, I give in ;) Finally found some better pics of the boards and they're not as symmetrical as I thought -
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-s ... a-50s.html

Not sure if non members can see these pics though, but you can see why this amp terrified me shitless..

I'll shut up now. Apologies for stirring shit unintentionally.

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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Re: Balanced v Unbalanced

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:42 pm

Images cannot be seen here unless you are a member of that forum. If you want an image here you have to save it to a hosting site like tinypics and copy the (img) code here.

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Re: Balanced v Unbalanced

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:47 pm

Bridging is a different way of doing but still worse. A bridged circuit will give twice the voltage so in comparison it is bound sound better to those who don't understand, because it is louder. It is same as riding the volume control in a dem room to sell you what they want to sell you. BUT what ever distortion and noise is present in the circuit is also be multiplied by two.

keepitsimplestupid
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Re: Balanced v Unbalanced

Unread post by keepitsimplestupid » Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:30 pm

Doc why not try explaining to us luddites why the Krell circuit doesn't count as balanced, instead of just waving your hands and shouting.

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