Is High-End Audio actually necessary?

[Fretless]

The views and discussions on HFS usually focus on equipment that is accessible and affordable. Relatively few have heard - let alone owned - kit that comes with a price tag of several zeroes before the decimal point.

The readership here is made up of discerning enthusiasts with good ears who are (in general) happy with what they have (yes - it can always be better) and not many see the need to spend extortionate amounts on esoteric sources/amps/speakers to increase their enjoyment.

However there are also some in the fortunate position where they can implement components from that rarified stratosphere.

Is it worth it?
Can a truly great sound be achieved on a budget?
Is the only way to audio heaven via seriously expensive gear?

I am curious to hear your opinions.

[Orc 201267]

I think it can be done fretless wat type off bugget we talking about

[George Hincapie]

NVA is proof that 'high end' sound can be obtained comparatively cheaply. Diminishing returns kick in at a certain price level, other than that it's simply down to the pride of ownership for me. The pleasure derived from owning something beautiful that has been carefully made. The argument applies to pretty much every aspect of purchasing, not just HIFI.

[Daniel Quinn]

You need to reverse the question . What is it about expensive audio that makes it better ?

For instance how can a 3k linn turntable with a £45 ac synchronous motor fitted be any better than well cited rega rp 3 if you put the same arm and cartridge on it ?

if a 15k amps electronic parts cost no more than a 1k amp , what is it that make it better or just different ?

generally , the higher the price the more bullshit that surrounds it .

Also outside the world of hifi dave and his ilk , there is a plethora of opinion that high end doesn't sound that good . Now if it was obviously better there would be begrudging acceptance . Visit any forum and you will find tales of people who have sold ££££££'s and replaced it with hundreds of pounds worth of gear and are very happy with what they have . Now unless it sounds as good how could they live with it ?

on the few occasions I have swapped equipment that as made a very real difference I could in no way go back to what was before .

I could not now live with an AT 95E , none NVA amplification or speakers with x-overs on the bass unit.

Now if I spent 15,000 quid on a cd player , I would expect that once heared never to be without , but lets face it it aint going to be that different from reasonably priced good one .

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

So called High-End started in both Japan and the US in the mid to late 1970's. To begin with it was about trying to create cutting edge products like early Mark Levinson, and the Japanese companies desire to "out face" each other in their home market. So it was a pursuit of excellence. Not much of the the early Yank stuff survives as it was not that reliable but the Golden Age of Sony and Pioneer et al trying out do each other has left us with many fantastic products, if you can find them. Since then the process has just become corrupted and has nothing to do with excellence anymore but more to do with "how much can we squeeze out of the buggers until they all die out", mostly in this country the sheep and the brainwashed who got caught by the Flat Earth.

[_D_S_J_R_]

[edit] - I missed the Doc's post as the thoughts below took a while to type up, but his views hopefully dovetail with mine and cut to the roots of where Top End was then and is now..


True 'Top End' to me is really about being able to throw money at a product to make it the best that can be. Not all very expensive confections are real 'Top End' I fear and this is where confusion comes in.

Am I allowed to spout off on this a bit?

I suppose for me, where sources are concerned, I get confused. The Caliburn turntable system has been raved about, but have any reviewers actually compared it's sonics with the master recording that made these records? All very well someone saying enthusiastically that an original Beatles vinyl album played on this thing may well be better than the over fifty year old master tape, but has anyone actually done this? Mind you, lots of tales that this deck goes out of tune quicker than LP12's used to as suspension clearances are a mm or two...

DACs and digital the same. DCS may well make hideously over-complex DACs, but I like Stan Curtis' original approach - to try to mimic in decoding, what the A-D does in encoding. Used to be easy with wall-to-wall Sony 1630 A-D-A systems but not sure now. Modern DAC chips do practically all of it in one or two ic's, so apart from power supplies and input/output switching, I really don't think there's a huge amount to do, unless you're John Westlake, who sells firmware for his almost unfinished 'designs.'

Amps? Big power done traditionally does cost loads of money in huge transformers and capacitor supplies and you need a substantial case to house it all. Bling the case up and factor in costs to ship from the US to Europe and I'm not surprised that a big amp would be expensive if it doubles its power into half the load right down to 1 ohm as big Krells do and did. Over £10k though and I think it starts to get silly. Dan D'Agostino was bought out? of Krell, so rather than compete with them, he's gone over their price level, making visual design statements (VERY expensive before you've stuffed the case) which still overheat if pushed too hard, so in twenty years time, these will probably need fully re-capping like 1980's hot running Krells do. Thing with powerful amps though, is that there are really good pro models out there which are still expensive (a few grand for the best and biggest ones) and I bet they'd see off the bling. I dare not comment my feelings about the Naim Statement amp and the people that buy them... It went from £140000 to £165000 or so because they weren't making enough out of it - cough...

As for speakers, drive units do have a price ceiling, so cabinetwork and fittings is king. I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful, but some speakers seem to concentrate on superfluous trims and fancy bits that can be seen outside, rather than important bits internally. Even my favourite brand of conventional speakers is very profitable and sells for as much as the maker feels he can fairly charge for them - and his dealers DON'T make anywhere near 50% profit I can assure you, yet they've rocketed in price over the last ten years. Still too much for me though and one reason why Cubes are superb value for money if you have the environment and system for them - just think, if the Doc added bling trims on them, fancy socketry and engraved metal labels, they'd triple in price overnight!!!!!!!

Cables bought in Hifi salons are what really gets my goat. Thousands of quid for bits of wire PURELY because the equipment itself is expensive, so the owner doesn't feel short-changed.

Lastly the reviewers. Nobody ever realised that two of the best known UK based reviewers of bling products act or acted as 'consultants' for so many brands, testing and advising behind the scenes, and being paid for this. One of them seems to have gone off the rails now and is totally in the 'flights of fancy' camp, leaving his sane engineering roots behind by the dawn of the 80's I remember (huge ego you wouldn't disagree with 'cos he knew better) yet so many of his tweaked speakers were popular and won loads of awards. There's a third reviewer, who takes a professional approach and even had a factory 'unit' which I think he used as his listening room. All 'work' though and his non-magazine views were often all but contradictory and expressed in a dealer/trade publication, so any respect I had was 'modified' twenty five years ago.

[guydarryl]

Can a truly great sound be achieved on a budget?

Yes!
But an awful lot is down to expectation/surroundings/state of mind.

I still have vivid memories of listening to Pink Floyd - Dark side of the moon while camping on Exmoor in my teens.
I had a pair of Sennheiser HD 600's, Sony Walkman (recording version of cassette Walkman - TCS ...? But not the really expensive one), two man tent with flap open on a very dark but starry night.
Tape was recorded from vinyl using a Rega 2 (ADC XLM I seem to remember).

Never had, before or since, such a fully immersed in the music experience.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

What was the dope

[antonio66]

I'm sure you do not have to spend huge amounts, I have seen some great bargains over the previous few weeks for sale on forums or ebay.

[Daniel Quinn]

In between the waffle DSJR does actually make a point .

Size and scale actually do matter . It is natural for bigger things to cost more . A large room will require bigger speakers and bigger speakers by the simple laws of physics will present the sound in a different way . They MAY also require more powerful amps [ however you define it ]

Size/scale is not however a simple justification for a massive price .

I have an inkling that if I had an unlimited budget I could not make my hifi sound significantly better than it does in my current room , even if I was to spend 100,000 on a turntable or 10k on a cartridge of , 35k on speakers .

however should I move to a larger room that may well be a different story .

Thus for me there is no need for hifi that goes by the name of hi end or state of the art .

I could of course be wrong .