Nippon vintage hi-fi

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Progmeister
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Nippon vintage hi-fi

Unread post by Progmeister »

The mid seventies were a revelation to me hi-fi wise. I took myself of to Comet thanks to my late father, who helped me load my quarry of a Sansui amp, Amstrad cassette deck, Roger RP 1500 turntable/Sure M75ED and Wharfdale Linton 3XP speakers into the cavanous boot of his Hillman superminx. The first leap I made from there was to a Technics SL 150 with an SME 3009. This would have been around 1974. Sparing you all the tedious array of the ensuing combinations I can admit to being sucked in whole by the UK hi-fi press into believing the flat earth approach was the best. As a consequence I dumped all of the Japanese equipment from my system much to my regret.

What I notice at the present time is the growing acknowledgement that much of the vintage Japanese source components are so good that used with today's British amplification and speakers they beg the question just how did we all get brain washed into thinking modified Thorens turntable designs were superior to exquisitely engineered machines made by Pioneer, Technics, Sony, Trio and JVC?

It's taken me a couple of decades but I am really starting to fully appreciate just how good a lot of the seventies Japanese equipment really is. Hats off to the nips :grin:
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Re: Nippon vintage hi-fi

Unread post by musique! »

Hi,

I agree with you : nippon vintage hifi is not really appreciate maybie because it's generally not expensive enough to be audiophile ! :lol:

For example I also had (and still have) Sansui amplifiers and they are really generous and dynamics and very very well finished but to be honest, most of the common one sound for their price, no more.

I agree that they are good quality/price especially if it's compare to most of what's actually made but what's really make me laugh is reading audiophiles thinking found something better than 5K€ system in it :mrgreen:

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Re: Nippon vintage hi-fi

Unread post by antonio66 »

Don't have a great deal of experience with many of the Japanese brands but have owned a couple of Sansui's and the most recent was a 919 amplifier which worked very with Shahinian Obelisks and also a Kenwood (no. forgotten although highly regarded) again very successful with these speakers. I think many newer amp designs try for ultra transparency at the expense of musicality which does not suit everyone.

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Re: Nippon vintage hi-fi

Unread post by _D_S_J_R_ »

Proper turntable siting wasn't even thought of back then, and most jap solid-plinth decks could sound muddy and thick toned when plonked on a sideboard as most were back then. A properly isolated sub-chassis coped far better and we sold many Philips GA212's as well as the AR XB and Thorens because of this - the LP12 , being a blue-printed and race-tuned TD150 came later on. These days however, it's amazing how well these oldies scrub up, but I still have memories of Technics decks being suspended on cotton threads from the lab ceiling so they could measure rumble, as sitting them on a table or similar made the figures far worse due to inadequate isolation...

Many lower priced (and some more expensive) Jap amps were truly horrible sounding, albeit beautifully made and finished. Most Pioneers, as well as post JAS310 JVC's (a nice little amp the 310) and non-V-FET Sony's sounded 'flat' in a boring and bland sense and couldn't drive their way out of a paper bag, so inadequate were the power supplies. THD figures ruled too, so overall feedback in the circuit was ladled on with a trowel, taking most of the subtle musical clues with it. The distortions left were often pretty nasty. Some receivers weren't bad and JVC came back with some nice ones. Luxman was expensive as now and Accuphase was creamy-coloured in tone. Yamaha showed promise, but their popular integrateds and receivers went down the pan starting with the CA *10 model range.

Just to finish, KJ in London in the mid 70's was a big Jap amp owner's dream - and then in '76 or so, a sales chap from another dealer (Hampstead Hifi, which was shortly to close), brought in his little Naim 22/120, which blew our amps away and the rest is history - the NAP120 and bolt-up 250 really were very good, as it wasn't until the CB range that Naim really went all harsh.

So, sorry to disagree with you Prog. Only a select minority of mid 70's amps and decks were good sounding back then, and it's amazing how forty years of nostalgia and more modern sources have skewed the perspective. We were lucky, we had Crown/Amcron amps and, not only were they superior then, forty odd years later and with modern interconnects and speaker cables, with the odd cap replacement here and there, they sound better than most even now - and I can say this having compared with NVA :) - they're far more alike than you'd dream possible and I'm not the only one here who thinks so too...
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Re: Nippon vintage hi-fi

Unread post by alfafan123 »

I never was convinced by the Naim sound even back in the 70s but must confess to being sucked in by the LP12 brigade but no longer I am happy to say. IMHO I always thought my Sansui AU101 sounded better than the first generation Naim Nait and I still find Naim stuff uneccesarily forward and aggressive to me.

Certainly agree with DSJR re the Crown amps and pleased to say mine is working great with my little P50. :grin:

As with most things in life there are good and bad products from sources all over the world. You just have to do your research carefully and be clear about what you are looking for.

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Re: Nippon vintage hi-fi

Unread post by Progmeister »

_D_S_J_R_ wrote:Proper turntable siting wasn't even thought of back then, and most jap solid-plinth decks could sound muddy and thick toned when plonked on a sideboard as most were back then. A properly isolated sub-chassis coped far better and we sold many Philips GA212's as well as the AR XB and Thorens because of this - the LP12 , being a blue-printed and race-tuned TD150 came later on. These days however, it's amazing how well these oldies scrub up, but I still have memories of Technics decks being suspended on cotton threads from the lab ceiling so they could measure rumble, as sitting them on a table or similar made the figures far worse due to inadequate isolation...

Many lower priced (and some more expensive) Jap amps were truly horrible sounding, albeit beautifully made and finished. Most Pioneers, as well as post JAS310 JVC's (a nice little amp the 310) and non-V-FET Sony's sounded 'flat' in a boring and bland sense and couldn't drive their way out of a paper bag, so inadequate were the power supplies. THD figures ruled too, so overall feedback in the circuit was ladled on with a trowel, taking most of the subtle musical clues with it. The distortions left were often pretty nasty. Some receivers weren't bad and JVC came back with some nice ones. Luxman was expensive as now and Accuphase was creamy-coloured in tone. Yamaha showed promise, but their popular integrateds and receivers went down the pan starting with the CA *10 model range.

Just to finish, KJ in London in the mid 70's was a big Jap amp owner's dream - and then in '76 or so, a sales chap from another dealer (Hampstead Hifi, which was shortly to close), brought in his little Naim 22/120, which blew our amps away and the rest is history - the NAP120 and bolt-up 250 really were very good, as it wasn't until the CB range that Naim really went all harsh.

So, sorry to disagree with you Prog. Only a select minority of mid 70's amps and decks were good sounding back then, and it's amazing how forty years of nostalgia and more modern sources have skewed the perspective. We were lucky, we had Crown/Amcron amps and, not only were they superior then, forty odd years later and with modern interconnects and speaker cables, with the odd cap replacement here and there, they sound better than most even now - and I can say this having compared with NVA :) - they're far more alike than you'd dream possible and I'm not the only one here who thinks so too...
Interesting Dave.
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Re: Nippon vintage hi-fi

Unread post by paskinner »

I used to buy glorious Japanese kit out of my student grant in the 70s ....you'd see hordes of fellow students at Comet buying Pioneer amps and 12D decks. Then we would live on porridge and home-brewed beer for the term.
As has been said, good and bad. As now. The real issue for me is the Japanese attitude towards servicing and spares. They seem to have a culture which mitigates against older equipment...virtually no spares are kept after a few years, kit is replaced quickly Same with their cars apparently, scrapped well before they can get old.

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Re: Nippon vintage hi-fi

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew »

You have to understand eastern thought and motives, they are different to ours. There is a very strong incentive to conform and individuality is suppressed to the family and to the company. And in each case *face* or respect (which is the nearest western equiv) are most important. So they have two motives, make money from the foreign devil with what ever crap he thinks we will buy, where the whole concept is based on perceived value. This the lesson they learned from the Yanks. But they also have to hold their face up in their community of other similar companies, and competition to be best and gain face is paramount, and this attitude created astonishingly good product. Our problem is we didn't buy any of it, or very very little. The reason is the UK distributors were only interested in turnover not prestige, so they gave up the so called high end to the onslaught of the Flat Earth bullshit. A classic example was Willy Ling the Pioneer UK importer back then who was a bit of a shyster and Pioneer built what you wanted if you were able to order in enough quantity. He and the rest of the European distributors wanted a PL12D that cost them less so they could cash in on the good reviews for the 12D and make more money. So appeared 112D. This went on all the time, and new product with new bullshit built around it was demanded AND was only sold through the discounters who would go for turnover and place large orders, so they killed the golden egg, or more the point gave it to Linn and Naim.

So where is the real excellent Nippon gold, well mostly in Japan, with some in the USA and some in Germany.

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Re: Nippon vintage hi-fi

Unread post by paskinner »

They do the same with watches. Seiki have 'domestic' watches, which are generally considered superior. They also do a very superior model..the 'Grand Seiko' which until recently was unavailable In Europe.

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Re: Nippon vintage hi-fi

Unread post by Fretless »

If it weren't for this forum, I wouldn't have discovered the joys of picking up discarded hifi gear in thrift shops.
My Sansui AU217 amp (late 70's) and Kenwood DP4090 CDP (early 90's) were both bought for peanuts and are in daily use.
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