My latest obsession

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karatestu
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Re: My latest obsession

Unread post by karatestu » Mon Apr 22, 2019 4:32 pm

You wouldn't believe the amount of unnecessary crap under the hood of that amp. Told him if i were to modify it for him it would be a case of pulling bits out of it and binning them :lol: . Also told him to try nva so maybe you will have a new customer sometime.
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Lindsayt
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Re: My latest obsession

Unread post by Lindsayt » Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:07 pm

A rock bass drum is a thing of awesome beauty.

With the awesome beauty being the sound and physical impact it makes when the drummer stamps on the pedal.

How do Premier bass drums of that era compare to others?

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karatestu
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Re: My latest obsession

Unread post by karatestu » Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:16 am

Hey Lindsay. Once miked up you can make any bass drum sound huge. Most bass drums of that era were 14" deep which is not deep by modern standards.

How did 70's premier compare to other makes ? To be honest i have not heard enough of them - some are pretty rare and collectors pieces now which means they aren't played or left out in sunlight (fades the finish). Depth makes a big difference to the live unmiked sound. Most were 14" deep, Ginger Baker played a lot of 12" deep kick drums. Then there is the diameter. 22" is about standard going up to 26" (Bonham) and after that you are in to marching drum territory - try mounting toms on top of a 28" bass drum and actually be able to hit them.

The more shallow a drum is the more the fundamental note dominates the sound. Go deeper and you get more resonance and over tones and a more complex note. Sound guys moan about resonant drums because they start to feedback when miked up. They like nice clean drums which they can manipulate in any way they want.

Lots of things determine how a drum will sound

Shell material - metal, acrylic, wood. Even different woods and metals sound different
Shell depth - deeper equals a fatter note and more boing
Shell thicness and number of ply's - this is a science within itself. Thin = more resonance but not as cutting or loud as a thick drum
Bearing edges where the drum meets the skin - rounded over edges give the 70's fat and warm sound, 45 degree sharp edges the modern cutting sound
Hoops - the woodern and die cast ones sound more controlled than steel triple flanged. The lighter the more resonance
Tuning lugs - lots of big metal things screwed to a drum shell can dampen the sound
Mounting method - floor tom with three legs can kill resonance compared to a drum which is hung from one point. Having a tunable spring effect can give increased sustain
Tuning - tuned low for rock. Drums have a tuning range where they sound best and its different for all drums. Add the fact that most drummers haven't a clue how to tune and get a good sound. It canonly be learned by experimentation with a particular drum, skin type, head type
Dampening - is there a pillow or similar inside the drum
The room plays a big influence on the final sound.
Recording drums is a completely different kettle of fish to live. Also is the kit mic'd up or not. No microphones is what i like best from a hifi nerdy point of view but that is for only the smallest gigs. Bri g in a microphone and you are not really hearing the true character of that drum.

I like to get as much resonance as possible from my drums so no dampening on any of them. No hole in the front bass drum head for microphone as i prefer a sealed enclosure ( i have doc modded my drum kit :lol: ). I recently mounted a mic inside my bass drum permanently and ran a cable out the air vent for when it is needed. I blocked all the air vents as i prefer the stick response i get from a sealed drum. I also tune moderately high for stick response as really i am a jazz head and love to do lots of rudimentary stuff which relies on good stick bounce.

Well if you are still awake, well done.
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CN211276
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Re: My latest obsession

Unread post by CN211276 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:08 am

karatestu wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:16 am
Hey Lindsay. Once miked up you can make any bass drum sound huge. Most bass drums of that era were 14" deep which is not deep by modern standards.

How did 70's premier compare to other makes ? To be honest i have not heard enough of them - some are pretty rare and collectors pieces now which means they aren't played or left out in sunlight (fades the finish). Depth makes a big difference to the live unmiked sound. Most were 14" deep, Ginger Baker played a lot of 12" deep kick drums. Then there is the diameter. 22" is about standard going up to 26" (Bonham) and after that you are in to marching drum territory - try mounting toms on top of a 28" bass drum and actually be able to hit them.

The more shallow a drum is the more the fundamental note dominates the sound. Go deeper and you get more resonance and over tones and a more complex note. Sound guys moan about resonant drums because they start to feedback when miked up. They like nice clean drums which they can manipulate in any way they want.

Lots of things determine how a drum will sound

Shell material - metal, acrylic, wood. Even different woods and metals sound different
Shell depth - deeper equals a fatter note and more boing
Shell thicness and number of ply's - this is a science within itself. Thin = more resonance but not as cutting or loud as a thick drum
Bearing edges where the drum meets the skin - rounded over edges give the 70's fat and warm sound, 45 degree sharp edges the modern cutting sound
Hoops - the woodern and die cast ones sound more controlled than steel triple flanged. The lighter the more resonance
Tuning lugs - lots of big metal things screwed to a drum shell can dampen the sound
Mounting method - floor tom with three legs can kill resonance compared to a drum which is hung from one point. Having a tunable spring effect can give increased sustain
Tuning - tuned low for rock. Drums have a tuning range where they sound best and its different for all drums. Add the fact that most drummers haven't a clue how to tune and get a good sound. It canonly be learned by experimentation with a particular drum, skin type, head type
Dampening - is there a pillow or similar inside the drum
The room plays a big influence on the final sound.
Recording drums is a completely different kettle of fish to live. Also is the kit mic'd up or not. No microphones is what i like best from a hifi nerdy point of view but that is for only the smallest gigs. Bri g in a microphone and you are not really hearing the true character of that drum.

I like to get as much resonance as possible from my drums so no dampening on any of them. No hole in the front bass drum head for microphone as i prefer a sealed enclosure ( i have doc modded my drum kit :lol: ). I recently mounted a mic inside my bass drum permanently and ran a cable out the air vent for when it is needed. I blocked all the air vents as i prefer the stick response i get from a sealed drum. I also tune moderately high for stick response as really i am a jazz head and love to do lots of rudimentary stuff which relies on good stick bounce.

Well if you are still awake, well done.
Very informative. I always thought John Bonham's drums were thicker than everyone elses.
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karatestu
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Re: My latest obsession

Unread post by karatestu » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:25 am

John Bonham was special. He really knew how to tune drums for the sound he wanted. They were mostly Ludwig i believe. The green sparkle kit on Royal Albert Hall 1970, the amber acrylic vistalite of Song remains the same.

I am not sure what depth they had but the diameters were big. 26" bass, 13 or 14" high tom and 16 & 18" floor toms. 18" is getting into jazz bass drum size. He tuned his drums high but with the drums being of large diameter he still was able to get a low note. The resonance heads (the ones not struck with anything) were always tuned higher than the batter head and believe it or not it is the tuning of the resonance head which has the most effect on the sound. I hate those 70's drums with no resonance head - yuck.

There is a youtube video made by his drum tech guy who worked with him for the last two tours i think (1977 and Knebworth). There was a concert in America in 1977 (cant remember which City) where Keith Moon joins led zep on stage. Pissed as a fart, hilarious. Its all on youtube.
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scotty38
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Re: My latest obsession

Unread post by scotty38 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 11:30 am

And another snippet of barely related info, I saw him (and the rest of Led Zep) at Knebworth in 1979...

Nigel
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Re: My latest obsession

Unread post by Nigel » Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:56 pm

Moon and Bonham, both dead aged 32. Rolling Stone magazine's top two drummers of all time. Who's your favourite, Stu?
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karatestu
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Re: My latest obsession

Unread post by karatestu » Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:45 am

Nigel wrote:
Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:56 pm
Moon and Bonham, both dead aged 32. Rolling Stone magazine's top two drummers of all time. Who's your favourite, Stu?
Yes very tragic. Watching interviews of Moon in the couple of years before his death, he was a complete mess. Pissed all the time and it should have been no surprise when he snuffed it. Bonham was different. Not a complete piss head but liked a drink of course. A very rare appearance on TV in 1980 (Tiswas) shows he looked healthy and sober although very quiet.

Bonham is my favourite by far. I dont rate Moon that highly. Just arms flailing about randomnly at speed. No real foot technique that stands out unlike Bonham whose bass drum playing was to die for. He had power, speed, creativity and enormous subtlety and finesse when required. Fool in the rain from In through the outdoor is a brilliant drum part. Half time shuffle (with a Bonham twist) similar to the ones by Joe Pocaro on Rosanna (Toto) or the famous Bernard Purdie shuffle.

I like lots of drummers in all kinds of genres not just rock.

Anyway i am still the only bidder on the Premier snare drum at the start of this thread. Ends tonight, will have to watch out for sneaky last minute bids. Moon probably had one at some point - and trashed it :roll:
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CN211276
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Re: My latest obsession

Unread post by CN211276 » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:08 am

Bonham is my favourite drummer. He contributed a lot to the song writing as well. I love the riff on Rock and Roll and his input on Kashmir when it intensifies towards the end. Also highly rate Neil Peart who doubled as one of the greatest lyricists.
I set a course just east of Lyra
And northwest of Pegasus
Flew into the light of Deneb
Sailed across the Milky Way

Sonore microRendu/McRU PS, AQ J-bug, Wirewold Ultraviolet, Chord Mscaler/Qutest, Geitnote Apogee, NVA BMU, P90SA, A80sMk2, Phono 1, SSP Mk 2, TSCS, TIS mk2, Cube 1s, Atacama stands, Rega Planar 3, Denon DL-110, Grado SR 325e, headphones.

Second system
Chord Mojo (also HP amp), NVA P20, A20, Cubettes, SSC, LS3.

Out and about
Oppo PM3, Audioquest Dragonfly Red.

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Dr Bunsen Honeydew
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Re: My latest obsession

Unread post by Dr Bunsen Honeydew » Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:52 am

The *two* biggest musical tests for a sound system, be it PA or home hi-fi is drums and real piano, get them right and with the bass as part of the rhythm section the drums just drive the music.

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