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Re: Opinions on how the Government have handled the coronavirus outbreak
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:42 am
by Classicrock
The problems start from two angles in my view. Firstly the experts underestimated the spread of the virus initially which meant the full measures were not implemented soon enough (by about 2 weeks). Secondly no government in the world or health service was prepared for this apart from Korea who had to deals with the Sars virus. As for PPI you can't magic the vast increased quantities needed in just a few days or even weeks. Whatever the govt decides and implements there is a long food chain which wasn't designed for this situation. Due to the NHS being nothing of the sort (but a bunch of independent trusts and divided by four countries) which goes back to decisions made by the Blair administration. A new central distribution system had to be created from scratch apparently. All considering and given the late start the government likely have done as much as they can do, given that some mistakes inevitably have been made.
Given the scale of all this shortcomings can't be laid at the door of the so called 'austerity'. I see some people are beginning to play politics with this demanding PPI at the levels of Intensive care departments which are not needed in most instances plus not available in big enough quantities. We now get demands for everyone using masks which would make it harder for NHS to get the required quantities. There is an infinite world production capacity for the required equipment and it appears so far british companies are performing miracles - which proves private industry is more efficient and effective than government bureaucracy. It's obvious that our civil service took a big boot to get moving which would be the case whatever party was in government. There is no cynical plot by politicians to let people die here and I'm sure they are trying their best in the circumstances. It appears the PM was closer to death than was let on which is what I feared. Maybe the reports of his condition have been the most misleading statements from ministers so far.
Re: Opinions on how the Government have handled the coronavirus outbreak
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:50 am
by valvesRus
Classicrock wrote: ↑Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:42 am
The problems start from two angles in my view. Firstly the experts underestimated the spread of the virus initially which meant the full measures were not implemented soon enough (by about 2 weeks). Secondly no government in the world or health service was prepared for this apart from Korea who had to deals with the Sars virus. As for PPI you can't magic the vast increased quantities needed in just a few days or even weeks. Whatever the govt decides and implements there is a long food chain which wasn't designed for this situation. Due to the NHS being nothing of the sort (but a bunch of independent trusts and divided by four countries) which goes back to decisions made by the Blair administration. A new central distribution system had to be created from scratch apparently. All considering and given the late start the government likely have done as much as they can do, given that some mistakes inevitably have been made.
Given the scale of all this shortcomings can't be laid at the door of the so called 'austerity'. I see some people are beginning to play politics with this demanding PPI at the levels of Intensive care departments which are not needed in most instances plus not available in big enough quantities. We now get demands for everyone using masks which would make it harder for NHS to get the required quantities. There is an infinite world production capacity for the required equipment and it appears so far british companies are performing miracles - which proves private industry is more efficient and effective than government bureaucracy. It's obvious that our civil service took a big boot to get moving which would be the case whatever party was in government. There is no cynical plot by politicians to let people die here and I'm sure they are trying their best in the circumstances. It appears the PM was closer to death than was let on which is what I feared. Maybe the reports of his condition have been the most misleading statements from ministers so far.
That seems a very thorough and unbiased assessment of the situation. Well done.
Re: Opinions on how the Government have handled the coronavirus outbreak
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:57 am
by savvypaul
Classicrock wrote: ↑Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:42 am
There is an infinite world production capacity for the required equipment and it appears so far british companies are performing miracles - which proves private industry is more efficient and effective than government bureaucracy.
Those British companies are working towards a common purpose, regardless of cost and without profiteering. I'm glad they are doing so. However, that is the opposite to the way the market normally operates.
Classicrock wrote: ↑Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:42 am
The problems start from two angles in my view. Firstly the experts underestimated the spread of the virus initially which meant the full measures were not implemented soon enough (by about 2 weeks).
While a large region of Italy was in full lockdown and their health system was overrun, hundreds of thousands of people were rubbing shoulders at the Cheltenham Festival. Didn't need an expert to see that we were a bit slow off the mark.
Re: Opinions on how the Government have handled the coronavirus outbreak
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:18 pm
by valvesRus
I thought that this part of a previous post was very interesting, it shows that ,despite popular opinion on here, Labour have made mistakes in the past.
"Whatever the govt decides and implements there is a long food chain which wasn't designed for this situation. Due to the NHS being nothing of the sort (but a bunch of independent trusts and divided by four countries) which goes back to decisions made by
the Blair administration. A new central distribution system had to be created from scratch apparently. All considering and given the late start the government likely have done as much as they can do, given that some mistakes inevitably have been made."
Re: Opinions on how the Government have handled the coronavirus outbreak
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:23 pm
by savvypaul
The mistake Blair made was to adopt Tory policy by trying to marketize the NHS.
If the Tories thought that was a mistake, they have had 10 years to reverse it. However, they have accelerated it.
Re: Opinions on how the Government have handled the coronavirus outbreak
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:37 pm
by Classicrock
I meant to say there is a finite world supply of equipment (not infinite). I can't see how any govt could easily abolish the Welsh and Scottish administrations and hence the separated Welsh and Scottish health services. Big mistake by Blair. Certainly his own policies and nothing Thatcher or Major would have done. Also now big variations in health care by area / region which certainly dates back to post 1997. I suspect some of the equipment issues are due to local management rather than central government. Govt can't micromanage this. Just not logistically possible.
Re: Opinions on how the Government have handled the coronavirus outbreak
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:52 pm
by savvypaul
Marketisation of the NHS goes way deeper than devolution.
Margaret Thatcher implemented the 'internal market' in the NHS in 1990.
It's been a 'big mistake' ever since.
Re: Opinions on how the Government have handled the coronavirus outbreak
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 1:20 pm
by slinger
There was a cross-government pandemic drill (Exercise Cygnus) that took place in 2016, which accurately predicted that the NHS would be plunged into crisis by an infectious and deadly disease. We've had that long at least to prepare, and plan for, this pandemic. You can Google it, or there's one of many newspaper articles here...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/02/labour-urges-government-publish-findings-2016-pandemic-drill
Re: Opinions on how the Government have handled the coronavirus outbreak
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:01 pm
by Classicrock
Too busy arguing about Brexit. No effective government for three years. I think a Pandemic is looked on as 100 yr event but if you go 99 yrs without one it gets more likely it will happen soon. I doubt if they started planning 3 years ago without an impending disaster to concentrate minds, enough would not have been completed. It was considered too unlikely in spite of warnings for many years that this was inevitable.
Re: Opinions on how the Government have handled the coronavirus outbreak
Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:22 pm
by savvypaul
Classicrock wrote: ↑Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:01 pm
Too busy arguing about Brexit. No effective government for three years. I think a Pandemic is looked on as 100 yr event but if you go 99 yrs without one it gets more likely it will happen soon. I doubt if they started planning 3 years ago without an impending disaster to concentrate minds, enough would not have been completed. It was considered too unlikely in spite of warnings for many years that this was inevitable.
I reckon they've had a plan, but not for something with such a rapid infection rate as CV. If anything, I suspect that adherence to their 2016 plan held them back from a faster lockdown. I think that delay also chimed with Johnson's naturally libertarian instincts. Combine the two and we can see how we were a couple of weeks late out of the blocks.