from rubber band to direct drive

[CN211276]

I am adding my penny’s worth as someone who did not fall under the spell of the Glasgow mafia in the 1980s. The Internet is exposing the extent of what they got away with, through their hold on dealers and the hi-fi press. Many have bit the bullet and realised they were conned in decades gone by, but blind loyalty still persists.

When auditioning the LP12 in 1983 it was very much a case of “the king having no clothes”. I felt compelled to post about this for the first time when the topic of the rip off £50 replacement belt came up on pfm:-
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/show ... ost2779280

A predictable response from one of brainwashed priesthood is not far below.
Later on in the thread, after being prompted, I managed to post links to the letter I had published in a 1980 edition of Popular Hi-Fi and the response from a ruffled Linn:
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/show ... 08&page=14

(As an aside, a letter on the same page about the Systemdek being superior to the LP12 is also of interest)

This was in my out spoken youth, but I still stand by most of what I said. Needless to say Ivor was not very happy. My letter had gone further than any published previously and I had obviously hit upon truths and struck a sensitive nerve.

I did not expect the letter to be published, but on reflection, Popular Hi Fi might well have consulted Ivor in advance, his consent being on the provisor that the magazine would publish a lengthy rebuttal which amounted to free advertising and the familiar B…..t. “Although there is an image at large of us as efficient marketing people…….. “We are a collection of enthusiasts……” It brings tears to my eyes.

[Lindsayt]

I spotted 3 incorrect / misleading statements in IvorT's Popular Hi-fi reply.

The big joke being that, as far as I know, no-one was able to respond to IvorT's rebuttal in Popular Hi-fi. IE the magazine gave him the last word on the matter and did not allow anyone to challenge his incorrect / misleading statements.

But now, all these years later, where we have free speech and free debate on forums like this, we can call out him out on his marketing bullshit.

[CN211276]

I seem to recall that there was a letter published in a subsequent issue of Popular Hi-Fi merely saying that Ivor's response was not convincing. Nothing substantive was published so to all intents and purposes he had the last word and I was a villain.

[Dr Bunsen Honeydew]

I also wrote about their behaviour, but to trade magazine Inside Hi-Fi in 1990 which I doubt any of you would have read. Main outcome was a phone call from IvorT which was a one way rant until I tried to get a word in sideways at which point I was told if I wont listen to him there is no point in trying to educate me . From that point on when my name came up at Linn dealers the response was "well you know he is mad don't you".

[_D_S_J_R_]

I apologise if I came on too strong on this, but back in the late 70's and early 80's especially, I feel I WAS a properly trained and experienced 'expert' on these decks, as well as the Systemdek, thorens, Logic with the 101 and others of this ilk, including the Oracle, which went off tune in a fortnight. In the early days, Linn didn't have a clue about setting the thing up right to maximise any sonic potential it had and it was Naim's Julian Vereker who got the set-up procedure together properly in 1977. He trained Jimmy Hughes and Jimmy trained me, with subsequent discussion with JV later on when KJ Wigmore St became a large Linn/Naim retailer. When I moved to Studio 99, there were around four of us at any one time setting Linns up (a dozen new LP12 sales a week for a couple of years) and again, we ALL shared experiences with errant samples to get the best from them. Fun at the time, I can understand the negative vibes here from those not in the thick of it and fuming from the sidelines, but *at the time* we were shielded perhaps and even Jimmy H had a pop at dealers sitting on their fat backsides waiting for punters to come in the door to spend ever more on Linn, Naim and Rega products, along with the support acts like A&R, Creek, NAD, Onyx, Heybrook, Mission, Royd and so on.

True story to the best of my memory -

On a private-cum-dealer visit to Linn in 1983, which incidentally nearly got me the sack (I was never a pure bland submissive goodie-two-shoes, whatever way I'm painted today), I was able to make a couple of LP12's on the production line, as well as a pair of walnut Kans from the beginning - I might share some pics one day as I have an album given over to this visit. The next day, Alan Gibb, me and my pal in their demo room, took their demonstration system apart together, re-built the turntable from scratch (s'cuse the pun), going over all the points to check and align from bearing bolts to tonearm fixings (Linn NEVER recommended doing the pillar bolt up almost to breaking point - that was a dealer mis-interpretation I recall), went through the Naim amp (jiggling preamp cards inside to freshen up the contacts and so on) and checked the speaker drivers for tightness. Needless to say, we all learned a lot from the exchange, as I felt able to pass on a couple of tips I'd learned and of course he was a mine of good information about how and why things were done as they were. No brainwashing and back then, Ivor's staff on the factory floor were gentle kind people who did care. We all loved music and back then in our relative youth it was a pleasure to share.. By the way, AT THE TIME, hard bolting the tonearm board to the then flimsy resonant sub-chassis made the sound worse, not better - and so on and so on.

I also got to hear The Blue Nile on master tape (played I think on an ATR102 and from half inch tape at 30IPS with no noise reduction) and I was hooked on their first album because of this.

I apologise again. There's things I know from training and sizeable experience from the time when it was important. I'm not big headed, but I bristle when challenged all the time on things I once regarded as important. Before the early 80's, we didn't have dedicated supports or knowledge of same, so solid direct drives were plonked on resonant tables or shelves with disastrous results for the bass, in my experience. What began the change was when owners of decent direct drives from Techncs, Sony and so on (the PL71 never made huge inroads in the UK sadly) came in for cartridge and stylus upgrades/replacements. These decks were placed on suitable supports and voila, the kind of sound quality from them they never had in the 70's! At this time, we took on the Rock II and this was rather lovely, a secret pleasure. Max T understood and was happy with the sales we made. Regas back then kind of sold themselves, so were largely out of all this, although Roy G was a sanctimonious beggar at the best of times I remember and bathed in his company's success.

As for comments about Mission 752's elsewhere, referred to by the Doc. WHEN VERY NEW, these speakers had two problems, one a loose bass (I'm told because the cabinet was rather large for the floppy driver) and the other was a prominent tweeter. If the bass was balanced by pulling them well out from walls, as Classicrock did, this over-exposed the tweeter on new samples. I've apologised 'there' too and suggested that time (nearly thirty years now) may have significantly tamed the tweeters, as it has done for other speakers I heard decades after manufacture.

So, apologies again. I need a holiday I think and because of other issues here and at home, I really don't need the stress. back then, all this certainly wasn't bullshit or prime-bollocks to us, but maybe we were shielded from Linn and Naim's worst behaviour as we were in the top three (selling) dealers for these makes for some years, only falling off the Linn 'tour bus' when they introduced the contract scheme in '91 or thereabouts - they lost nearly one hundred of their dealers I recall.

Jamie, I think 'we' all told you to give the Pioneer a chance. I'm glad it's working out for you as I think it looks far better than the PL71 - and I do acknowledge how good the 71 is at getting music off records. Sorry for jumping in as I did. Give the Sony arm a chance, it can't be 'that' bad and obviously you now have time if you want, to do some serious tonearm research

[southall-1998]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi6sgW_y7Uc



S.

[CN211276]

In the early days, Linn didn't have a clue about setting the thing up right to maximise any sonic potential it had and it was Naim's Julian Vereker who got the set-up procedure together properly in 1977. He trained Jimmy Hughes and Jimmy trained me, with subsequent discussion with JV later on when KJ Wigmore St became a large Linn/Naim retailer. When I moved to Studio 99,

This is very interesting. I seem to recall that I auditioned the LP12 at Studio 99. It was April 1983 and I made the trip to London one Saturday to compare it with the Rega Planar 3. Rega dealers being very thin on the ground at the time, this seemed to be the nearest one. Both TTs were fitted with the Rega arm and the same cartridge. The amplifier was the all conquering NAD budget one and I think the speakers were a quality budget model made by Boston. In no way was the LP12 superior to the Rega, an opinion substantiated by a local friend who accompanied me. Of course I purchased the Rega, which must have been £250 cheaper and was easy to set up. I returned the following month (on Cup Final day) when one was in stock (there was a waiting list).

After reading the above I am 100% satisfied that the LP12 was properly set up. I still have the Rega and occasionaly spin some vinyl.

[SteveTheShadow]

Stevetheshadow, I think there may be something in the principle of rigid loops. Or, rigid energy transfer to an energy sink. Relatively low compliance cartridge in a rigid arm with very high quality bearings, mounted on a rigid chassis that's either heavy or on a rigid support on a rigid wall or floor. The record players that I've liked the most have tended to follow that pattern.

I agree, there is nothing wrong in principle with the rigidity philosophy and taken to its conclusion, the scheme, as you say, provides fantastic sound quality. What makes me laugh though is that Linn dealers jumped on the bandwagon by claiming that the LP12 was the pinnacle of this way of doing things. Just because the Ittok was a rigid, high quality bearinged arm does not mean that the LP12 itself was following the same philosophy. But you wouldn't have known it from the way the marketing of the TT suddenly changed tack to fall in with the latest buzz.
For instance, the Linn LP12/Grace G707/Supex 900 combo was regarded as the ultimate, no mention of rigidity or anything else, it was just a lovely combination. then suddenly the Ittok/Asak was the biz and the Grace arm was yesterday's news and the Ittok was touted as being great because it was rigid. Great arms such as the Syrinx PU3 seemed to get hounded out of existence, not by Linn themselves, but by influential mags and dealers, who by now had swallowed the bullshit. Ivor must have thought all his birthdays had come at once.
Until the appearance of the Naim Aro in 1987, Linn had the whole widget sewn up. I remember hearing a Naim Aro in 1989 with a view to purchase and being blown away, but my circumstances changed for the worse so I never bought one.

I remember when the SME 30 turntable came out with the SME series V arm, and apart from the belt drive, here was a turntable and arm that expressed the ultimate in rigidity thinking, and it was roundly dismissed as "boring" in comparison to the LP12. The same fate appeared to befall the cheaper Michell Gyrodec, but both of these lovely turntables have survived in one form or another however, which is good.
I think it was only Ken Kessler, who spoke sensibly about these two TTs ie, that they were absolute stonkers in both the looks and sound quality stakes and made the LP12 sound coloured in comparison.

So nothing wrong with high rigidity, philosophy but as we now know the 80s/90s LP12 ain't it.
I'm happy with a low-mass unipivot arm with high-compliance MM cart fitted to an idler-drive motor unit, mounted on a massy plinth. Sounds better than any LP12 I've ever heard. Equally a Standard Techy motor unit with SME 4 arm is a bloody good listen too, and also blows an LP12 into the weeds.

[_D_S_J_R_]

In the early days, Linn didn't have a clue about setting the thing up right to maximise any sonic potential it had and it was Naim's Julian Vereker who got the set-up procedure together properly in 1977. He trained Jimmy Hughes and Jimmy trained me, with subsequent discussion with JV later on when KJ Wigmore St became a large Linn/Naim retailer. When I moved to Studio 99,

This is very interesting. I seem to recall that I auditioned the LP12 at Studio 99. It was April 1983 and I made the trip to London one Saturday to compare it with the Rega Planar 3. Rega dealers being very thin on the ground at the time, this seemed to be the nearest one. Both TTs were fitted with the Rega arm and the same cartridge. The amplifier was the all conquering NAD budget one and I think the speakers were a quality budget model made by Boston. In no way was the LP12 superior to the Rega, an opinion substantiated by a local friend who accompanied me. Of course I purchased the Rega, which must have been £250 cheaper and was easy to set up. I returned the following month (on Cup Final day) when one was in stock (there was a waiting list).

After reading the above I am 100% satisfied that the LP12 was properly set up. I still have the Rega and occasionaly spin some vinyl.

That's perfect, because you heard for yourself and made your own decision on your own criteria - the dealer hopefully didn't try *too hard* to influence you (I was in the other shop, so wouldn't have been there on a Saturday) and none of us worked on commission anyway. The Rega could do with a tighten up by now - keep the feet slightly loose - and a drop or two of fresh EP80 in its bearing (very easy for you to do yourself) and will thank you for it. If it has the R200 arm, you trade increased feedback tendencies for the beautiful musical flowing quality it has over the RB300 version. My current cheap-as-chips 'Mule' P3 has an R200 on it, together with a Thorens/EMT heavy rubber mat (I don't like the original wool mat) and as long as I keep volume to sensible levels, it sounds pretty decent (it has a 24V fixed motor and one of the third party orange coloured silicon belts fitted) if nowhere near a PL71 say. I was able to get a mint glass Planar 3 platter for a tenner from a very kind AOS member and my old friend gave me a spare 24V motor and board he had, together with a slightly tatty cover minus one hinge and Rega badge in the lid... The high current 24AC supply cost less than a tenner and the chassis with bearing well under fifty quid a few months ago. I was intending to resurrect a Grace arm I have kicking around, but the R200 works so well and with all sorts of cartridges, I've stuck with it... Here it is with P1 MDF platter -

[jammy395]

If this thread doesn't make a novice audio buff want to rush out and buy a CD player nothing will.....